Censorship on this board [Archive] - YoJoe.com Forums

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dockingbay97
12-03-2004, 09:41 AM
So I have been reading a bit recently from a handful of people that think we (the mods) are censoring posts/threads.

Why is that?

As far as I know we only step in when one of the three cardinal rules are broken:

Swearing - yes, we usually edit out the word(s)

Politics - close the thread

Religion - close the thread

And we may close a thread if people just start yelling at each other for whatever reason that day brings like:

"I think purple Vipers rock and you and your red vipers suck!"

Our reasoning for the above items is to keep this board as Joe oriented as possible and friendly to people of all ages.

There seems to be a handful of people that have issue with this and to those people I ask: "What's your beef sir?"

And remember for everyone of the few people that complain, we get more positive responses from others. Unfortunately in life the positive responses are never as loud as the negative.

This came to me just yesterday from a member that I honestly don't interact with on the board so it was even more of pleasant suprise:



You're a fair voice of reason when we get too far out of hand. You and the other mods help make YoJoe the best site out there.


So to those out there that feel this dictatorship is too much for them, here is your chance to voice why. No need to slip little comments into other threads. Voice them here.

And if you feel the opposite - feel free to voice your opinion as well.

We, the staff at YoJoe, cannot make this a better site without feedback.

But as always, try to be civilized in your comments because simple answers like "You suck, Jeff sucks, AC sucks, you all suck" just don't lead to productive debate. And I may suck but Jeff and AC rock! :)

Druss
12-03-2004, 10:21 AM
This board is like someone else's house or place of business, while your visiting in their house you play/live by their rules. Its not censorship, its not squishing your constitutional rights, its their place, their rules. By agreeing to the rules of the site when you register you are bound by them which gives the Mods every right in the world to do the job they are in place to do.

You have a few options, realize your mistake, accept it and move on or decide you can't abide by the rules and leave. Obviously the former is the better option as the site/community won't thrive if everyone leaves but some people can't seem to get along in a online community without being rude to everyone and belittling people.

Now the one gripe I would have is if the Mods are changing posts that don't fall into the above criteria, but I don't think that is the case, and if they do chagne something it shows up very obviously at the bottom of the post that its been edited so you know who did it.

RotterdamTerrorCorps
12-03-2004, 10:37 AM
Censorship on this board ain't that bad. I agree with Druss. As a visitor you play by the rules of the board. Don't like them? Don't visit. Plain and simple.

When I first joined this board my first posts were blunt and insulting. I got a couple of warnings, both public and pm. Then I had a simple choice: leave or adjust behaviour. I chose the latter.

dockingbay97
12-03-2004, 10:41 AM
Now the one gripe I would have is if the Mods are changing posts that don't fall into the above criteria, but I don't think that is the case, and if they do chagne something it shows up very obviously at the bottom of the post that its been edited so you know who did it.

I also try to leave an explanation for the edit like "Edited for language."

drveovru2
12-03-2004, 12:01 PM
It seemed like for about a month .. all i would see was mods posting things like you just earned yourself a week of vacation from this board ( i cant remember if that is the exact phrase)

I think the wording is very unproffesional on the mods part. kind of like they are on a power trip.(personal opinion). I just feel like there is no reason for a mod to make it seem like they are trying to be funny about it. I dont see the problem with a person using astricks and symbols to reference a word so they can convey a feeling. But i am subject to the same rules as everyone else so if i feel the need to type something like that, i make sure i do it on another board.

I can understand there is a need for editing. I understand somepeople come on here (possible with other identies) just to stir things up.

here is my personal beef

I have a personal problem with my avatar having to be editted and it was right after i had a different opinion with 2 people. the next day i am told that a man with a gun to his head is not appropriate for a website that deals with gijoes who shoot cobras. IT had been up for atleast 4 months and no one complained till I had a different opinon than someone and they got upset and we had a behind the scenes confrontation in PM'S. I know people could possible feel it implied suicide, but to me it was a form of self expression. I didn't have it up to offend anyone. I edited the avatar, but i don't see why the mods would not tell me who it was. I am an intelligent person and if someone really had somekind of traumatic expierence I would understand. I feel it was someone that was upset because i had a different opinion so they used the mods to get even with me. that is my personal problem with the mods and cencorship.. i am liberal person so i dont find problems with peoples self expression.

just my 2 cents.. i know i dropped a little line in a post just recently..

GBPackRat
12-03-2004, 12:17 PM
Lately,

Surprizingly, I haven't mind the censorships and edits done by the mod's...

Sure a few might have been touchy calls, but you can't please everyone, all the time...

Its a tough job being a mod, and if you can't play by the mod's rules, you have no reason being here.

I have issues with a few of the rules, but I'm willing to fall in line...

Why, because the rules are simple, clearly stated (and public for all to see) and edits have a name (and sometimes reason posted with them)...

Its not too hard to fall in line and for as much as we all get out of coming here and discussing all things related to the GI Joe Universe, I believe it worth it, falling in line and playing by the rules...

If you can't, move on and create your own site... Then you can make everyone play by your rules.

Tanner

dockingbay97
12-03-2004, 12:39 PM
drveovru2, while I find your avatar to be one of the two on this board that give me the willies, that never even went through my mind when the decision was made.

When people started complaining, that is when I asked you to remove it.

I know you seemed a little hurt that I wouldn't tell you who complained.

The fact is I will never, ever reveal anyone who reports a post or makes a complaint about another member. It is counteractive if I do so. The mods can't read every single post on this board so we do depend on input from other members. If we started saying who was telling us things, then no one would want to help anymore. I am sorry if that bothered you and I honestly don't remember who the people were either.

And I didn't mean anything offensive by my "Vacation" term. I know we the mods were very frustrated at that time because there were multiple occurances of cursing almost every day.

For better or worse the "Vacation" has cut the cursing way, way down.

GBPackRat
12-03-2004, 12:59 PM
drveovru2, while I find your avatar to be one of the two on this board that give me the willies

Wow... so I wasn't the only one creeped out either...

But it wasn't me C.V. I was willing to live with it...

Tanner

PS: I did like the screaming one better personally.

orionlukteel
12-03-2004, 01:18 PM
I dunno - the avatar kinda reminded me of Henry Rollins. I thought it was funny in its extreme, goofy way. And this is coming from someone who WAS suicidal at a point long ago. (TMI, probably, but it puts my view into perspective)

However, if someone were offended by my inflated cow, I have plenty of other pics with which to express myself. I've seen MUCH worse on other boards; it's kinda nice that for the most part, the images here aren't quite as creepy as what's out there.

Hey, I blew it with my .sig when I first started. One of the mods let me know, I changed it. It's really not a big deal to me.

As far as enforcing policy - the FAQ is plain as day. For those who can't seem to follow rules, there are plenty of other boards in which to spread their bile, pick fights, etc.

It didn't seem the FAQ was being read or followed there for a while. It's been nice to see that the suspensions and bans have put the kibosh on a LOT of negative-impact behavior. And I don't have to worry about my son reading the forums over my shoulder. I shouldn't have to.

Keep up the good work, guys. It's highly preferable to constant flamewars.

GBPackRat
12-03-2004, 01:26 PM
However, if someone were offended by my inflated cow, I have plenty of other pics with which to express myself.

Pat,

I will be the first to come forward and express my offendness about your "floating cow".

I for one, born and rasied in the state of Wiscon.....

LOL ok, sorry thought I could do this with a straight face, but I can't, so I guess the cow gets to stay.

Tanner

Richard J.
12-04-2004, 11:52 AM
However, if someone were offended by my inflated cow, I have plenty of other pics with which to express myself. I've seen MUCH worse on other boards; it's kinda nice that for the most part, the images here aren't quite as creepy as what's out there.
That's a very logical take on things. Why antagonize people unnecessarily? There are plenty of avatars I could run that would distrub and probably deeply offend people. Instead, I make a point of using some inoffensive.

The only avatars that would likely offend me are politcal. There are some odd ones, but no one here seems to be trying to offend, therefore it's easy to just not be bothered.

If someone's offended, just make a new avatar. It's easy, it's fun, and keeps things fresh.


And I don't have to worry about my son reading the forums over my shoulder. I shouldn't have to.
This is a point everyone should take to heart. If a kid couldn't read your post, rethink it. Cursing vocally is easy, typing it accidentally isn't.

One last thing everyone should keep in mind: No one has to keep this site going. Everyone involved in keeping things running smoothly would have a lot more free time if they just dropped the whole thing. So, instead of complaining, be greatful people.

Just my thoughts.


Richard J.

amphigory
12-04-2004, 12:49 PM
i would like to see a seperate section on religion and politics added to the forum for those that would like to discuss their impact on the joeverse. religion and politics play a large role in the way figures are released by hasbro and accepted/denied by the public at large.

starrcommand
12-04-2004, 12:58 PM
This board is like someone else's house or place of business, while your visiting in their house you play/live by their rules. Its not censorship, its not squishing your constitutional rights, its their place, their rules. By agreeing to the rules of the site when you register you are bound by them which gives the Mods every right in the world to do the job they are in place to do.



I completely agree. My only grip though is that not too long ago i got a warning for saying that something made me POd. It was a grip. I wasnt upset at someone else I was just saying that something upset me. And too me saying POd isnt vulgar. But I was warned and threatened with a ban and I apologized. I understand that F, B, AW and others are vulgar. But if it isnt one of the normal vulgar words then it should be listed some where as to it being unacceptable. Plus the filters blocked it. Which I also didnt notice.

But if someone slips and the filters catch it and they werent attacking someone can u explain why you would ban them for any amount of time, after all thats what the filters are for catching mistakes? Now if someone went as far as, like stated in the rules, to misspell it or change it to try and get it passed the filters that would be a different story.

But an accident, I dont see why it would deserve a threat of a ban, rather than a notice that a mistake was made and a notice that it needs to be corrected? Cuz when i was threatened w/ a ban it kinda annoyed me especially since it was a mistake!

Ridureyu
12-04-2004, 06:49 PM
I used to be a mod/admin on a particularly nasty forum - planetnamek.com, if any of you remember back that far.

When it started, everything was all right, and people got along. the moderators had to ban a guy who spent all of his time cussing people out and posting pornography. For some reason, one of h9is friends cried "CENSORSHIP!" and tried to start a revolt. He, too, was banned for flaming and posting porn. People began to take offense at this, and cry "Censorship." this went on until EVERY SINGLE ACTION that a moderator made was attacked and challenged, and the mods kept giving in again and again and again - unless the "popular" members of the forum bullied them into doing something. For example, on the case of religion, you were originally allowed to discuss anything if you remained civil. y the time everything was over and done with, you were allowed to discuss anything you want as long as you weren't Christian - any Christian posting would be flamed for about three pages worth of posts, and then banned by mods who were bullied into it. Concerning politics, the same thing basically held sway - if you supported Bush, you were in deep, deep trouble. All in the name of "free speech," of course. I eventually became disgusted and quit when i realized that there was no way to fix the place. Heck, when the news came in that the site was closing down because the owner didn't want to support it anymore, people threatened his life. I am not kidding. I was very happy to see it go.

Anyway, it all started like this - people mildly complaining about "censorship" as if the board is public property.

Warning: Excessive use of caps lock coming. Not for the weak of heart.






HERE IS A MESSAGE FOR EVERYONE


A MESSAGE FORUM IS NOT PUBLIC PROPERTY, AND IS NOT PROTECTED UNDER THE RIGHTS OF THE UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION IN THE SAMW WAY THAT SAY, A PUBLIC FORUM WOULD BE.

A MESSAGE FORUM IS THE PRIVATE PROPERTY OF ITS OWNERS, IN THIS CASE JEFF BOHN AND THE OTHER SITE ADMINS.

JEFF & CO. HAVE THE RIGHT TO DO WHAT THEY WANT WITH THE PLACE. IF IT ISN'T MORALLY RIGHT, AND IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT, YOU ARE FREE TO LEAVE, COMPLAIN QUIETLY VIA PM OR INSTANT MESSENGER, OR JUST IGNORE IT AND GO ON. IF THEY ARE DOING SOMETHING WRONG, EXPRESS YOUR OPINIONS IN A QUIET, RESPECTFUL WAY.

IF YOU WERE PARTYING AT SOMEBODY'S HOUSE, YOU WOULD HAVE NO RIGHT TO COMPLAIN IF THEY KICKED PEOPLE OUT FOR DESTROYING THE FURNITURE AND INSULTING THE HOST'S WIFE. LIKEWISE, WE HAVE RULES TO FOLLOW HERE.



Thus ends my rant. Thank y'all and have a good night:)

The Real Destro
12-04-2004, 08:47 PM
I had a simular issue when I was Mod on another Board. IMO Can't fallow the rules posted don't post, don't visit and don't read. Don't like it? to bad.

review-this
12-04-2004, 10:37 PM
i would like to see a seperate section on religion and politics added to the forum for those that would like to discuss their impact on the joeverse. religion and politics play a large role in the way figures are released by hasbro and accepted/denied by the public at large.

i agree, most of us are adults and if we want to hear the opinions of our joe community, why shouldn’t we?

acmirro
12-05-2004, 01:32 AM
i agree, most of us are adults and if we want to hear the opinions of our joe community, why shouldn’t we?


Because history has proven over and over and over again that discussion of that sort, more times than not, lead to ugliness and we really do not need that drama here. This is a discussion forum about TOYS.

Ridureyu
12-05-2004, 02:40 AM
On that forum I mentioned, we TRIED having a forum for discussion of religion and politics. Nobody posted in it. they kept their discussions in the general discussion forum, and got mad when posts were moved/abandoned said posts.

Richard J.
12-05-2004, 01:44 PM
Because history has proven over and over and over again that discussion of that sort, more times than not, lead to ugliness and we really do not need that drama here. This is a discussion forum about TOYS.
That's truth, plain and simple. Politics and religion aren't subjects given to rational, calm, and logical discussion. They are emotionally charged. Completely. It wouldn't matter if you restricted them to just their impact on the Joe world, there would still be fights.

I used to think the board would benefit from a politics and religion thread, but after I thought about it awhile, it just seemed like a bad idea.

Plus, some of us can't compartmentilze politics or religion. We LIVE them. A lot of casual friendships would suffer when people discovered they were idealogically opposed. If something isn't talked about, it can be ignored indefinately.


Richard J.

Spillspleen
12-05-2004, 05:34 PM
Toys toys toys and nothing but toys the topic should be...anything else...well...go stand on your own street corner and hand out flyers...!

antybots
12-06-2004, 02:43 PM
Just a quick reminder that this forum reaches a worldwide audience.
Discussing politics and religion would be a very bad idea IMO.
Let's stick to common ground...Toys!

JustinBarnhill
12-06-2004, 06:55 PM
Well my opinion of message board ownership is as follows:

The site owners own the board, the mods police it, but the people posting make it. Without all of these 4000+ members – this board would be a pretty dull place.

I do not have a problem w/people using asterisk as filler for naughty words. Bottom line is we all use them. If a kid reads a sentence and is able to determine by context the asterisk word, he’s/she’s probably heard it before and more than likely used it. If the kid can’t figure out the censored word, all the better – mod job accomplished. There are some instances (few for others, many for me) that rate a curse word – that being said, I don’t have a problem with following mob mentality and censoring my own posts to eliminate the offensive language.

I don’t think that anyone should be banned for a slip of the key. Especially if it’s a grey word. I would think that anyone who posts an asterisks word these days wouldn’t be doing it intentionally. It would probably be an honest mistake. I know for a fact that a member posted a word that he thought was kosher, a word heard on the nightly news and in church, and was banned.

While I would like to see more diversified discussion on the board (something above and beyond – new sculpts suck, kb sucks, Hasbro sucks, snake eyes rocks, stormshadow rocks, firefly rocks, etc, etc), I realized long ago that yojoe isn’t the place for this. I consider yojoe’s message board to be a first step for most collectors. The first place a new joe collector finds. Eventually they all branch out and find other message boards. Places where these types of discussions do take place. Sometimes you want to talk about things other than gi joes w/fellow toy collectors.

I do the bulk of my “joe chatting” via email and msn messenger. Its probably the only way that I can come here and post w/o being banned. :)

Im just glad that none of my posts have been edited. (at least not to my knowledge). For some reason, I think that would make me very angry and I would probably let fly a torrent of foul language that would make Tarrantino proud. Bottom line is like everyone here will say….if you don’t like it leave….and I think that’s why some of us don’t post as often as we once did or at least we lurk more.

danyanda
12-06-2004, 08:41 PM
I think that I am being censored because I cannot make my avatar work at all.

Really, though, there is no government coming in and telling you that you cannot post, it is the people in charge of running the boards. There are certain rules, and they enforce them. None of the mods have ever banned Deogg for saying he doesn't like new sculpts. None of the mods have ever banned anyone for saying they don't army build. It's like threatening someone's life or sexually harassing them and crying censorship when you are arrested. That is not censorship that is enforcing established rules/laws.

The only problem I can see is that the mods have made themselves very accessible to us. This way instead of having the nameless, faceless ebay gods end your auction for breaking the rules, you are told when and what you did wrong by a specific person. Instead of griping because "those stupid ebay people" did something to you but nobody cares you have a chance to interact, namecall, etc... with a very positive identification of your target. You and everyone else know who made the call.

I personally prefer it to be this way. I am glad that if I do something against the rules that AC or Dockingbay or Jeff will contact me and tell me what it was. I try to follow the rules but if I screw up then I'll take my medicine.

By the way, my name is Dan, the N and M keys are next to each other. You type too fast and boom, you get asterisked, so go easy on me, okay guys.

acmirro
12-06-2004, 10:57 PM
By the way, my name is Dan, the N and M keys are next to each other. You type too fast and boom, you get asterisked, so go easy on me, okay guys.

The board doesn't moderate itself; we have to push all the buttons. It is obvious when someone makes a simple typing mistake or are trying to let one slip by. I have never had to warn someone because of a mistake, and I am pretty sure Jeff or Nick havent had to either. We arent going to ban you for saying that Storm Shadow is an assassin.

JeffreyKabal
12-13-2004, 05:34 PM
About the avatars:

Avatars which have porn or anything really really offending should be deleted.
But a guy who puts a gun to his head....c'mon..you don't see any blood or brains.
Kids get to see those kind of things daily on tv. Not to mention the Dragonball Z series, where Freeza's gots cut in 2 pieces.
Belgian Gabber was once banned for his avatar which was a smiley who stuck up his middle finger. Well I think that wasn't necessary at all.

People can complain as much as they can about avatars...but what's the point?
There are more then 4000 members...5 guys complain about an avatar it get's deleted? Or should it be 500 members who complain?
This is what I'm trying to say:
10 people may complain, 4990 do not.
Everybody can be offended in any way. If I have traumatic experience with Transformers because my brother got under a train when he played with it is the avatar going to be deleted? No off course not, because the most do not care and do not think it's offending. Same way with a smiley who shows his middle finger or a picture with a guy with a gun. Extreme examples, but I hope you see the point.
There are always people who complain. If I have an avatar with a pentagram for wiccans or satanics, Christian may find it offending, but in the other way I might find Jesus or the cross offending. Not that I care about any of them, I'm not religious, but when people complain you should make sure that A LOT people complain and not 10 or so.
Open polls for example.

JeffreyKabal
12-13-2004, 05:57 PM
By the way:

I just looked into the birthday calendar.

I found on guy of 14, one of 15 and one of 16.

Allright...kids...but do we really think that they don't swear or search porn on the internet or don't watch horror/thriller/sf/action movies?

I recently turned 19 myself and I remember those days when I was that like yesterday. And I was never surprised when someone said "bad" words.
I think almost nobody does and I also think kids don't really visit the baord, but rather the site to look what's new.
C'mon which kid is interested in what "old" (please see the irony, last time I wrote this people got upset and the topic ended in flame wars) collecters write.

Not many.
I know some people aren't in the calender because they didn't fill in the dates, but I don't think there're another 10 14 year olds or 15 years old kids.
I even think they get mad when we call them kids. I know I got mad hehe

Jeff Bohn
12-13-2004, 06:14 PM
Not counting the members, we also have many guests that don't have an account here, and there is no accounting for how old they are. Also, many members have children who have seen the site or look over their parents shoulders.

bluebikerboy1
12-13-2004, 11:22 PM
avator? see you all got to technical for me. dont know what that is.... oh well.........anyways............

my take. its there board. they get to do what they want. i do think that some of the words that are banned are unnessary. like the grey words like other word for mad (p word), and that H word. and so on. i said that stuff when i was a kid and it was fine. but again its your boards and its your rules. i would like to see a political thread though and just have an advisory saying this area might not be sutible for kids under 16 or whatever.
anyhow thats my take.

JeffreyKabal
12-14-2004, 10:42 AM
Not counting the members, we also have many guests that don't have an account here, and there is no accounting for how old they are. Also, many members have children who have seen the site or look over their parents shoulders.


touché! Didn't think of that.

By the way, an avatar is that picture some members have.

acmirro
12-14-2004, 04:07 PM
Belgian Gabber was once banned for his avatar which was a smiley who stuck up his middle finger. Well I think that wasn't necessary at all.




Lets get ALL the facts down. He wasnt banned because of ONE avatar. We asked him a few times to change an inappropriate avatar and he just changed it to something equally unacceptable. The South Park image of Stan flipping the middle finger was just one in many he got banned for.

Jeff Bohn
12-14-2004, 05:00 PM
Actually, I thought the South Park one was mooning us, and the middle finger was just from an un-named smiley. Bah, either way, neither were appropriate.

KrymsynGardImmoral
12-14-2004, 05:22 PM
AC sent me to the corner to think about what I done, and told me I could not come back without some Toy Anger management classes. Now, while that might have made me mad before, which is TOTALLY OK, now I TOTALLY RESPECT AC'S RIGHT TO EXIST AND TO TELL ME WHAT TO DO AND NOT DO, AS WELL AS THE REST OF THE WORLD'S RIGHT TO WHINE AND COMPLAIN ABOUT NOT GETTING WHAT THEY WANT, EVEN WHEN IT IS SOMEONE ELSE'S FAULT, WHICH THEY HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO DO WITHOUT FEAR OR PHYSICAL ASSAULT OR CRUSHING FROM ABOVE. I WILL ALSO COUNT TO 10 BEFORE EVER POSTING IN ANY THREAD USING THE WORDS "OCS", "HASBRO SUCKS", "WHY DOES HASBRO SUCK?", "HOWCOME HASBRO SUCKS?", "LOOK AT ALL THIS SUCKING HASBRO IS DOING?", or "WHAT'S WITH ALL THIS SUCKING HASBRO IS DOING?"......8...9....10.

Please pass the brain slug.

dockingbay97
12-14-2004, 05:36 PM
Please pass the brain slug.

I prefer the hypno toad


Jeff, you got the sequence right. I am not even for sure why the avatar business is being brought back up.

Giving someone the finger through a graphical means is the same as swearing, let's not kid anyone. I think the majority of the board members here would agree.

And that finger seemed directed to the mods in particular, let's not kid anyone there either.

BelgianGabber
12-14-2004, 06:09 PM
Lets get ALL the facts down. He wasnt banned because of ONE avatar. We asked him a few times to change an inappropriate avatar and he just changed it to something equally unacceptable. The South Park image of Stan flipping the middle finger was just one in many he got banned for.

Don't lie, I didn't get a single pm or warning about an avatar!!! I got banned because of the middlefingers without a previous warning!!!

I have no problem with that banning, understand it. But don't lie that I got warnings, let alone pms about other avatars!!! I got an e-mail from one moderator that I was banned and a couple e-mails were exchanged. I didn't get a single warning about a previous avatar. Come up with facts and don't just make stuff up!!!

JeffreyKabal
12-14-2004, 06:12 PM
And that finger seemed directed to the mods in particular, let's not kid anyone there either.

Nah, don't think so Nick. If I have a nice conversation with the mods and I put a smiley waving it also doesn't mean I'm waving to you.
It's just how you interpreted it.

Acmirro I know he had some dared avatars before but I heard the arguments Nick gave about how the finger was pointing to you.
I think that was a weak argument as you don't know for sure, and I see BG way more intelligent to do such a childish thing. I don't even think he came up with the thought of that.
Anyway what's done is done, hope he learned from his mistake to take a German eagle for an avatar for example, but I also hope that peoples avatars won't be such a issue in the future. Let's focus on true swearing. I think that's more important...okay okay if you have a clear avatar with a nude girl or man or anything way to extreme ...I shut my mouth...but a cartoon figure?
Well I think that's a bit to much of it.
But hey..your board :) Just saw this thread so wanted to give my opinion about it

BelgianGabber
12-14-2004, 06:20 PM
Hey mr Acmirro, I am a very lucky man still having the e-mail another mod sent me. Please explain why you state I had several warnings? Please come up with evidence. I don't like to be lied about!

here's the e-mail:

dockingbay97
12-14-2004, 06:49 PM
Please don't post private emails without the other person's permission. It is kind of bad manners to do so.

I will never air any personal conversations over a banning on this board.

If you need to talk personally to AC over your avatar, please do so via email or pm.

And in the end, it doesn't matter if it is Charlie Brown, a smiley face, or Mickey Mouse, everyone knows what that finger means and it is a curse.

BelgianGabber
12-14-2004, 06:52 PM
If mr acmirro finds it necessary to post about it, I'm entitled to reply and escpecially if he's lying!

dockingbay97
12-14-2004, 06:52 PM
At the end of the day, haven't we gotten past this? Haven't we moved on?

Why drag it back up and argue about it all over again?

BelgianGabber
12-14-2004, 06:53 PM
I didn't bring it up, he lied. I didn't get a warning about another avatar, he totally came up with stuff, being a mod he should know better or check his info better!

Jeff Bohn
12-14-2004, 07:02 PM
In addition to the one personal warning that you received, there have been multiple warnings on the board, in the FAQ, etc, about inappropriate posts, be it words or images. Consider those your warnings.

drveovru2
12-14-2004, 07:08 PM
I'm not trying to take any sides on this subject. i have had my avatar edited...

the whole avatar situation is getting exploited ,and i really would like to keep my edited version of my avatar. I hope this doesn't get blown out of proportion and end up with the avatars disappearing.

am i correct to say that the avatars are only edited when someone complains? if i am , how about we propose this idea. politely ask someone to remove it , state why it offends you in a humane manor, then if you can't work it out with that persons, go tell on them. most are adults here, why must we run to the mods to take care of personal business. there are far worse things to tend to than a little self expression.

most things that are edited on here can be heard on tv, and on the radio, or seen on a childrens play ground every day. so i dont see why people must rely on someone else to take care of there problems, do it on your own. i would of edited my avatar on my own had i know someone had a proper reason for editing it. Nearly all self expression in any form on this board is like politics and religion, someone is going to be upset. I see something i dont like, and i move on and dont take it to heart. other people do the opposite. If i had their same state of mind, i could rummage through these boards and be the politicaly correct police. I bet i could find 100-200 things that i could argue to the mods about being ethically correct for this board, and it would probably result in some banning. but, I just accept that people see things differently than i do.

without the differing personality types, this place would get boring fast. You will always have someone pushing the limits of the rules, its human nature.

starrcommand
12-14-2004, 07:43 PM
Please don't post private emails without the other person's permission. It is kind of bad manners to do so.

I will never air any personal conversations over a banning on this board.

If you need to talk personally to AC over your avatar, please do so via email or pm.

And in the end, it doesn't matter if it is Charlie Brown, a smiley face, or Mickey Mouse, everyone knows what that finger means and it is a curse.

Actually I would consider this censorship. And your explanation would be lacking b/c in the complaints section ppl post emails they receive from the person they are dealing with all the time and the mods here have never removed one. And here b/c it has to deal with a mod you have. That I feel is unfair! I dont mind it if it has been done and maintained but to do it just in this case b/c it involves a mod is ridiculous and unfair.
And to say he was warned on the boards in a posting is also ridiculous. You want to warn someone email or pm and add confirmation of receipt, but dont say u warned them in a posting b/c we dont read all the postings in here.
And to say everyone knows that the finger is an expletive is also presumptuous b/c different hand gestures mean different things in other countries if they mean anything at all.

Iron Snake
12-14-2004, 08:01 PM
Not counting the members, we also have many guests that don't have an account here, and there is no accounting for how old they are. Also, many members have children who have seen the site or look over their parents shoulders.

So now people have to worry about the prying eyes of someone else's kid(s) while on the internet? Isn't that what their own parents are for? There's harsher language on primetime network television than you guys allow here even with a filter in place. I'm sorry, but this is getting a tad overboard. There is such a thing as over moderation.

Take it for what it's worth but I think you're doing a disservice to the posters here by treating them like children.

My two cents on the matter.

Jeff Bohn
12-14-2004, 08:04 PM
When you sign up, you state that you agree to the terms and conditions of the board. If you don't read those terms and conditions, well, there's nothing I can do about it. Warnings have been stickied multiple times. Just think before you post. I haven't read all the laws that my state has, but I still know better than to go out and hurt someone or drop my pants in public.

Decency. That's all I ask for.

Jeff Bohn
12-14-2004, 08:12 PM
So now people have to worry about the prying eyes of someone else's kid(s) while on the internet? Isn't that what their own parents are for?

Why should this be a site that parents would have to worry about? Again, we're here to discuss... toys.

I've had my say in these discussions plenty of times, and all this is going to do is frustrate me even move, so I'm out.

bluebikerboy1
12-14-2004, 08:38 PM
so avatar is that pic that you have under your name? maybe a list of whats considered unapropriate would be in order. lets face it, everyones idea of appropriate is different. true this is a site for kids but kids today are deffently not as sensative (or there parents for that matter) as they were back when we were kids. as soon as i figure out how to do it i got an idea for my avatar (my kitty will be imorialized). anyhow i do think this thread is heating up so i got a joke to lighten it up.

anyone hear what happened to the energizer bunny?












he got charged with battery.

and to jeff and dokingbay and the other mods, we appriciate your work. keep it up. for the rest, if you cant stand the heat get out of the frying pan(i think thats right)
other words quit your bellyachen (as dad used to say):D

drveovru2
12-14-2004, 08:48 PM
So now people have to worry about the prying eyes of someone else's kid(s) while on the internet? Isn't that what their own parents are for? There's harsher language on primetime network television than you guys allow here even with a filter in place. I'm sorry, but this is getting a tad overboard. There is such a thing as over moderation.

Take it for what it's worth but I think you're doing a disservice to the posters here by treating them like children.

My two cents on the matter.


thats why my avatar got edited, someones son saw it over there shoulder and asked about it, they said it was hard to explain. i could somewhat understand since i have a son, although stuff like that is always on tv. it might of been a tough situation for them, but is it my fault? i dont think it is , but i dont harbor a grudge at that person and i appreciate them coming forth to clear it up for me.

it must be tough being the big guy on the block and everyone is trying to take you down.

drveovru2
12-14-2004, 08:56 PM
and to jeff and dokingbay and the other mods, we appriciate your work. keep it up. for the rest, if you cant stand the heat get out of the frying pan(i think thats right)
other words quit your bellyachen (as dad used to say):D


IF i am not mistaken, the mods opened this discussion, so i would say we are only belly aching because they asked for it... and as for us getting out of the frying pan, we aren't the one jumping ship on this topic....

guess your just trying to score some brownie points eh?

bluebikerboy1
12-14-2004, 10:00 PM
IF i am not mistaken, the mods opened this discussion, so i would say we are only belly aching because they asked for it... and as for us getting out of the frying pan, we aren't the one jumping ship on this topic....

guess your just trying to score some brownie points eh?

was going to pm you this but your mailbox is conviently full.......


anyhow i work in an environment were the upper management get a lot of **** talked about them for doing there job (i was one for a while). i know how it feels to do your job and get a lot of ridicule. call it brown nosing if you want but when you have numerous people bashing you it feels good to get one in there that appriciates your work. as for brownie points i wasnt looken for them. i just dont like to see someone (or someones) get bashed for doing there job.

drveovru2
12-14-2004, 10:11 PM
was going to pm you this but your mailbox is conviently full.......


anyhow i work in an environment were the upper management get a lot of **** talked about them for doing there job (i was one for a while). i know how it feels to do your job and get a lot of ridicule. call it brown nosing if you want but when you have numerous people bashing you it feels good to get one in there that appriciates your work. as for brownie points i wasnt looken for them. i just dont like to see someone (or someones) get bashed for doing there job.


its conviently empty now..flame on.... by the way using astricks to cover up your choice words is not allowed.. consider yourself warned, next time you might earn a vacation

willie&joe
12-14-2004, 10:22 PM
I believe there are far better ways to express our Constitutional Rights than on a message board about toys. Take to the streets to express your freedom, publish a newspaper, write a letter to a congressperson, tell someone off for cutting you off in traffic, start your own webpage. This is America do what you like. But, being America, people also have the right to say what goes on on their property. This webpage is the property of the mods, they decide what is appropriate or not.

BelgianGabber
12-14-2004, 11:11 PM
In addition to the one personal warning that you received, there have been multiple warnings on the board, in the FAQ, etc, about inappropriate posts, be it words or images. Consider those your warnings.

That doesn't mean he gets to say I got warned several times about an avatar! So then there's no more reason to 'warn' people as they already have been warned five times. My thing is he publicly lied about me and none of the other mods are saying he's right because he isn't. Covering it up with this or saying this was discussed is just not right.

Again, I have no problem with obeing the rules, I got banned, no problem. Thing is, he's not the almighty and should not lie!

acmirro
12-14-2004, 11:28 PM
Actually, I thought the South Park one was mooning us, and the middle finger was just from an un-named smiley. Bah, either way, neither were appropriate.


Ah, correct Jeff. I got the two mixed up. Funny how I would do that. That is what made it doubly inappropriate.

BelgianGabber, when did I say you were emailed or PMed? I said you were warned. Having multiple avatars edited is warning ENOUGH to make someone think, "ok, maybe I shouldn’t have a avatar with someone mooning the board...Maybe I shouldn’t have a avatar flipping the bird"...I don’t know what that means in Belgium, but in America it means...well, we all know what it means. THAT was your warning. So, before you fly off the handle and try to defame my credibility, think outside the box; read my post and show some couth. REREAD the rules we have posted; breaking the rules in any fashion warrants the mod staff to respond accordingly.

You may think we are unfair at times, even tyrannical. Truth is we are just trying to make this a comfortable environment for everyone. Not agreeing with a rule does not give you the right to break it, push the limits, or argue with us about it. If you have a concern, approach us with your reasonable retort and we will work with you. Or if you really don't like it, do something effective. Boycott the forum!

I think we have all been fair and consistent with the moderating. (Last week I banned one of my best friends.)

Ann G
12-14-2004, 11:33 PM
this is silly

don't you all have toys to collect and trades to make and such....no cussing...just drop it. Give the poor horse a break..he is dead already.

acmirro
12-14-2004, 11:55 PM
I didn't bring it up, he lied. I didn't get a warning about another avatar, he totally came up with stuff, being a mod he should know better or check his info better!

Actually, Jeffery brought it up.


Belgian Gabber was once banned for his avatar which was a smiley who stuck up his middle finger. Well I think that wasn't necessary at all.

Anyway...Is that true that you only received one email and or PM about it? If that is indeed correct I retract my statement about you getting warned multiple times. (if that is true) Either way it doesnt change WHY you were banned. You were banned for multiple unacceptable avatars.

Iron Snake
12-15-2004, 12:16 AM
This is the last post I'm going to make in here because I've already said what I wanted to say about this topic. But please, will some of you people stop telling others to "let it go" or "give it a rest" or "stop complaining" or what have you? This is a Moderator initiated topic where the Moderator specifically asked for feedback about the moderation on the site.


So to those out there that feel this dictatorship is too much for them, here is your chance to voice why. No need to slip little comments into other threads. Voice them here.

And if you feel the opposite - feel free to voice your opinion as well.

If you like what's going on, say so. If you don't, say that too. That's what this thread is here for. Airing the laundry so to speak, so let it come out. The moderators are adults, I doubt their feelings are getting bruised because there's a difference of opinion in the way things are being done.

When the thread's run its course to the satisfaction of the staff, it can be closed by said staff. Let things play themselves out. It's not hurting anything to have members that are unhappy for whatever reason say why they're unhappy.

I, personally, have no issues with this site other than the one I already mentioned where it feels like I have to "watch what I say" because some random kid somewhere that I don't even know exists may or may not be looking over their parents' shoulder at a random site on the very random internet. How is it my concern what that kid sees or gets exposed to?

But the rules are the rules... no cussing, no starring out words... no problem! I adhere to the rules, always have, always will. But that doesn't mean I have to swallow it like a good little boy and not "make waves" for fear of upsetting the masses.

If you don't want to read complaints, maybe entering a thread about the airing of grievances wasn't the best of ideas.

Ann G
12-15-2004, 12:42 AM
I guess I am one of those complainers you were talking about.

90 percent of us get it..no cussing and common sense in the 90 percent of us would also mean no birdie flipping avatars..or whatever it was.
This topic comes up all the time in threads, posts....so my opinion is for EVERYONE and may I boldly say....including the mods....let the poor horse rest in peace. This is a toy board. We should be glad they let us use the board for something else besides classifieds..which is what it used to be.

drveovru2
12-15-2004, 01:15 AM
this monster was created by the mods

they started cracking down on every little thing that could be considered not politically correct. Now they are expected to police every single item. best way to settle a dispute with someone is to find something they said that offends you and to tell on them.. so they get a "vacation"... only way not to offend anyone is to not post at all.

all the warnings and banning were bad ideas... now alot of people are going to try to push some buttons... seemed like everyone was alot happier and things were smoother when the occasional slip wasnt followed by a warning or a banning.

you start offending people, then they get there friends to do the same soon your left with everyone mad at each other, and the board goes bad for a while.

it would of been much easier, less work, and less stress to not make an little slip into a big deal. now its on everyones mind, people have left, people are looking into other boards.. soon this board will seem like a ghost town if everyone is policed for any little offensive thing they do.

i feel all the attention the mods have put on cursing has made more problems. instead of the occasional person upset, now we have people at each others throats. this one is deffinetly a learning expierence for all parties involved.

dockingbay97
12-15-2004, 01:31 AM
If you don't want to read complaints, maybe entering a thread about the airing of grievances wasn't the best of ideas.

I never said I didn't want to read complaints. I know what I typed what did and asked for people to vent. I don't need my words shown back at me.

I just didn't think this avatar business that was long dealt with and forgotten would be brought back up.

The finger could have meant several things in the world but it really only means one thing now. I am not saying the finger is a part of US culture because I really don't know but it sure seems to be a part of Western culture.

Western culture as a whole as seeped into every corner of the globe. Even isolated tribes in the Amazon have been changed by it.

I am not going to buy that a person savy enough to use the web and knows about things like GI Joe would not know what that gesture means. To say that "well, someone from another portion of the world may not know what that gesture means" really is not a valid arguement here anymore. It really is a small world after all and that gesture is universal now.

If my memory is right, the avatar before the finger giving smiley wasn't the mooning Cartman, it was a Nazi wareagle with the swastika removed. People did complain about that because even without that one symbol it was easily recognizable as being Nazi. And anyone living in a formerly occupied country should be able to understand that symbol would upset people.

And then to replace that with a smiley face flipping the board off?

Let's use commmon sense. Almost all of us are either from the Western hemisphere or at least live in or have been exposed to a Western culture (i.e. from Western Europe to Hong Kong). If anyone of you were driving down the street or walking down the sidewalk and were given the finger by a passerby, you would at least get annoyed if not get upset.

Why? Because we all know what that symbol is saying. We all know it is an obscene gesture.

To keep arguing otherwise is really only because you want to cause trouble here or you have a bone to pick with the staff - not because you don't think that gesture was used in innocence.

dockingbay97
12-15-2004, 01:43 AM
Jesus, I wasn't talking specifically to you either. People need to stop taking everything personally on the internet.


I WAS NOT ADDRESSING ANY SPECIFIC PERSON WITH WHAT I SAID BUT IT'S OBVIOUSLY TOUCHED SOME NERVES.

Get over yourselves people! If I was talking to you directly you'd know it because I'd address you personally! Good grief... >:-(

That wasn't meant at you in particular but to all the people saying all the mods can't take what they asked for.

We can take it, we just find it unneccessary.

The Lord of Steel
12-15-2004, 04:10 AM
I think the moderators are doing a good job over here. This is not an "only adult forum", so you have to set some limitations. and a zero tolerance against some things is a good policy. the yojoe-forum isn't my favourite forum because there are a lot of strict limitations, but that's no problem to me. when I go to the yojoe-forum I know there is a zero-tolerance against some words, symbols, etc., and as an adult it's not so difficult to respect this. Don't try to find out how far you can go when you visit this board, and be a little bit reserved in your choose of words, avatars, topics, etc.

BelgianGabber
12-15-2004, 05:15 AM
Actually, Jeffery brought it up.



Anyway...Is that true that you only received one email and or PM about it? If that is indeed correct I retract my statement about you getting warned multiple times. (if that is true) Either way it doesnt change WHY you were banned. You were banned for multiple unacceptable avatars.


Jeffrey brought it up and you lied about is stating I had several warnings. I posted an e-mail proving that statement was incorrect but Dockingbay removed it.

Why put up a thread about censorship if you don't do it honestly. I wasn't going to reply because I don't care. If you go somewhere you play by their rules, no problemo. But A moderator said some very incorrect things about me, I placed an e-mail another mod sent proving me right, and it got taken off.

That seems a lot like how things are done in dictatorships... Don't critisize our 'leader' even if he's not right. jeeesh

JeffreyKabal
12-15-2004, 07:02 AM
To keep arguing otherwise is really only because you want to cause trouble here or you have a bone to pick with the staff - not because you don't think that gesture was used in innocence.

Nick why say this all the time? Because I discuss this matter makes me wanting to cause trouble or having problems with the mods? No off course not! Do I cause trouble now? I hope not..well it's not my intenstion to do so. If you think I do, think about it. Is it really trouble..for the mods? or for the board? At least not for the board as the discussion is open. Do I have a problem with you, jeff, ac, notpicard, timmer or anyone else?
No. So in my case your argument is false.
But you see everything personal. Like I said earlier in this thread I do not believe that BG posted that avatar directing to you or the rest of the mods.
You interpretated your way and I do my way. But what was the story behind the choise of BG?
I asked him. But I'll let him explain himself. It wasn't directed to any of us.

We can discuss this for hours, but I rather see this solved in 5 minutes. So let the big boogieman BG tell his side of the story.

dockingbay97
12-15-2004, 07:21 AM
You know what? I don't really care why the avatars were choosen.

I had dropped this subject and long forgotten it.

Everything was going along quite peachy until you Jeffrey brought the BG avatars back up yesterday.

I am done with this subject and will no longer comment on it. It should be obvious why those avatars are not acceptable. We weren't picking on anyone.

I am so done with it I am half tempted to lock the thread but I am sure that will just feed the conspiracy beast.

And if you think this is dictatorship - well, this has something a dictatorship doesn't have - you can leave and move on with life.

It is over with. Let it rest.

JeffreyKabal
12-15-2004, 07:35 AM
Great Nick...just great. Blame me for ruiing your good mood.
You dropped it because you don't care but the people who got banned didn't because they CARE. And you asked for replies so I referred to a happening in which I was somewhat familiar with.

As you won't comment on it, it is also obvious you just won't accept that their's another side of a story and maybe that your interpretation was wrong.

If you'll agree that the avatar was not decent, you should do what you think is right. But I think BG deserved an explanation which contains value.

Lock the thread? Why would you do that? Because you are getting some critics you don't like?
Their is no name calling, no bad avatars, no politics and no religion? Everythin by the rules...still not good enough? We're just discussing a matter. Don't open these kind of threads if you do not want people to give their opinions.

I never said the word dictatorship so I don't see that sentence pointed to me.

GungHo
12-15-2004, 10:07 AM
You know, if you guys from across the pond feel so out of place here and have a hard time getting us Americans to understand to understand your ways then why bother agueing your point?

It seems that all you guys from Belgium want to do is raise cain here with the mods and staff of YoJoe.

BG, you know your avatar was inappropriate, it was removed, and you thought you'd be cute and toss up a smiley face flipping people off......you KNOW what you intended to say with that avatar... and you were given a supension from the board......so quite playing us Americans off for fools.......because some of us see right thru you and your petty games.

I'm sick and tired of seeing the same people try and campaign thier way here at YoJoe .......it's not your forum......it's a privately owned forum.......that has an agreement that you agreed to even before you decided to grace us with a single post.........so don't act suprised when you're banned or suspended for breaking or stretching the rules......

Also, with YoJoe being a privately owned forum the US Constition and your right to free speech is null and void here........posting here is not a right...it's a priveledge.

Nick,AC,Jeff and all of the other staff....I commend and applaud you for the job you guys are doing here. There's no need to turn YoJoe and it's forums into a sewer pit much like alot of other forums. If peopel feel the need for a political or religous discusion then perhaps they should sign up for a political and religous forum...and quite posting at YoJoe.

JeffreyKabal
12-15-2004, 10:44 AM
You know, if you guys from across the pond feel so out of place here and have a hard time getting us Americans to understand to understand your ways then why bother agueing your point?

It seems that all you guys from Belgium want to do is raise cain here with the mods and staff of YoJoe.



oh boy...here we go getting to Europe VS America conflict again.
This has absolute no value to this conversation.
You know like Nick said that it was peacefull overhere till I mentioned the avatar.
So blame me if you want. I don't care. But do not look at the Belgium or any other Europeans as one group.
We're all individuals.

As far as I know nobody wants to raise cain. This thread was to let the members here it's voice and so members do.

It's ridiculous to say BG had petty games in his mind. Who in the world would come up with the idea to take an avatar with a middlefinger to give it to the mods?? If it is used as a smiley in a reply I would definetley see why but an avatar? Okay it is for yojoe inappropiated, yojoes choise but I just think the argument that BG was pointing to the mods was not right as BG also told me he didn't even think about that.

I do clap my hands for the mods for creating a forum for so many people, but I'm not crawling on my knees and thank them for it. No matter how good someone or something is, if their are critics they should be heared. Especially when somewhat asked.

GungHo
12-15-2004, 11:05 AM
oh boy...here we go getting to Europe VS America conflict again.
This has absolute no value to this conversation.
You know like Nick said that it was peacefull overhere till I mentioned the avatar.
So blame me if you want. I don't care. But do not look at the Belgium or any other Europeans as one group.
We're all individuals.

As far as I know nobody wants to raise cain. This thread was to let the members here it's voice and so members do.

It's ridiculous to say BG had petty games in his mind. Who in the world would come up with the idea to take an avatar with a middlefinger to give it to the mods?? If it is used as a smiley in a reply I would definetley see why but an avatar? Okay it is for yojoe inappropiated, yojoes choise but I just think the argument that BG was pointing to the mods was not right as BG also told me he didn't even think about that.

I do clap my hands for the mods for creating a forum for so many people, but I'm not crawling on my knees and thank them for it. No matter how good someone or something is, if their are critics they should be heared. Especially when somewhat asked.


Well it just seems as if you guys in particular want to continue to butt heads with the staff here........so why not just leave it alone and do your own thing in your own country......since you think that WE Americans just can't seem to grasp your culture or way of thinking??

BG can say what he wants.......but if he thinks that we're supposed to believe that he meant nothing by that last avatar he had up when banned then he needs wake up.....because I certainyl see thru it...as well as many other people here at YoJoe do.

BG was and still is playing petty games.....he's clearly trying to draw Anthony out into the range of fire with his blasts towards him..... and BG isn't innocent...contrary to the picture he'd like to paint for us........but BG isn't Picasso..... and this isn't art school either.....this is the YoJoe forums....and EVERYONE that signs up here agrees to an agreement and signs it before ever posting one single time.

I'm just sick of a handfull of people trying to push the envelope here....and then act like a Martyr for thier crusade when they get a suspension.

We all know the rules.....it's time to grow up and follow them.

BelgianGabber
12-15-2004, 11:16 AM
Well it just seems as if you guys in particular want to continue to butt heads with the staff here........so why not just leave it alone and do your own thing in your own country......since you think that WE Americans just can't seem to grasp your culture or way of thinking??

BG can say what he wants.......but if he thinks that we're supposed to believe that he meant nothing by that last avatar he had up when banned then he needs wake up.....because I certainyl see thru it...as well as many other people here at YoJoe do.

BG was and still is playing petty games.....he's clearly trying to draw Anthony out into the range of fire with his blasts towards him..... and BG isn't innocent...contrary to the picture he'd like to paint for us........but BG isn't Picasso..... and this isn't art school either.....this is the YoJoe forums....and EVERYONE that signs up here agrees to an agreement and signs it before ever posting one single time.

I'm just sick of a handfull of people trying to push the envelope here....and then act like a Martyr for thier crusade when they get a suspension.

We all know the rules.....it's time to grow up and follow them.

You don't read everything I guess. I had no problem whatsoever with the banning about the avatar with the fingers. The eagle, I like art like that, not swastika's and stuff don't get me wrong.

I took the finger avatar from a big forum (www.livesets.com). There are other rules there and that I respect. You get burned, you get the boot, no problem. I only have a big problem with Acmirro stating I got several warnings when that's a complete lie. I got one e-mail from dockingbay that I was banned (and we exchanged a couple afterwards) but not a single warning before.

That avatar with the fingers really wasn't pointed to anyone, it's more like a way of life. I take everything criticly and have my own thougth about a lot. I really understand there shouldn't be any politics on this board or stuff. But when I see a post signed with 'God bless us all', I think that's uncalled for either.

I'll stop posting on this (I only replied because of the statement made by acmirro).

And gung ho, you seem like a nice guy but please do not generalise. If we wouldn't like this site we wouldn't visit it. And if I did not play by the rules, I'd be long banned definately here. The avatar thing won't happen again, I sometimes tend to push things over the top a bit (that's how I dress and stuff, but I agree, that should not be here).

If I did something wrong now, I may be banned no problemo. I got banned for the avatar but nothing else can be put in my shoes...

GungHo
12-15-2004, 11:30 AM
And gung ho, you seem like a nice guy but please do not generalise. If we wouldn't like this site we wouldn't visit it. And if I did not play by the rules, I'd be long banned definately here. The avatar thing won't happen again, I sometimes tend to push things over the top a bit (that's how I dress and stuff, but I agree, that should not be here).



Dude, I'm not your average 28 year old male either... I've got long hair way past my shoulders, listen to loud, obnoxious, blaring heavy metal music, and usually dress in the same manner. I live my life pretty much with an "I don't care what you think of me" type of attitude ........ so we probably aren't that much different all things considered.

I've just learned a long time ago to relax....and just enjoy the various forums that I'm a part of. I'm a member of at least 50 forums.......you can get a feel for the atmosphere almost right away......and you know what is expected from you as a member of a community......the same goes for YoJoe. I know what to say to tow the line....and I certainly know exactly what to say to get myself permenantly banned from here for life. It's all about knowing the limits that have been put in place for us.

Ciou..... ;)

JeffreyKabal
12-15-2004, 11:50 AM
since you think that WE Americans just can't seem to grasp your culture or way of thinking??



That has nothing to do with it.
This thread wasn't about culture, I didn't even see the word.
Anyway BG told his story now, and I believe him. Maybe it's indeed because we Europeans have a bit the same way of thoughts that we see things different then Americans but it was not involved in this thread.

Anyway: Gung Ho.....you look actaully more like me :)
I've got long black hair, pircings, tattoos and also listens to heavy, death, blackmetal :):)

GungHo
12-15-2004, 12:47 PM
Anyway: Gung Ho.....you look actaully more like me :)
I've got long black hair, pircings, tattoos and also listens to heavy, death, blackmetal :):)


Yep, I've got my share of piercings as well....no ink just yet though....although my brother has more ink that a newspaper now...lol

I dig on alot of bands that come from your part of the world man....alot of talent.... I'm particularly fond of the band "In Flames"

Anyhow, I'm getting off the subject .....so I'll close for now....

antybots
12-15-2004, 01:52 PM
If this thread is anything to go by, the moderators should certainly keep up their forum rules. If the rules were relaxed, I'll bet most threads would get off topic and degenerate into increasingly-hostile arguments and the mods would spend all their time playing referee.

Don't believe me? Then read through this thread : Dictators? Troublesome europeans?

Keep up the good work mods. Keep this forum about GI Joe toys and keep it enjoyable and respectable.

crimsonhawk
12-15-2004, 01:57 PM
this monster was created by the mods

they started cracking down on every little thing that could be considered not politically correct. Now they are expected to police every single item. best way to settle a dispute with someone is to find something they said that offends you and to tell on them.. so they get a "vacation"... only way not to offend anyone is to not post at all.

all the warnings and banning were bad ideas... now alot of people are going to try to push some buttons... seemed like everyone was alot happier and things were smoother when the occasional slip wasnt followed by a warning or a banning.

you start offending people, then they get there friends to do the same soon your left with everyone mad at each other, and the board goes bad for a while.

it would of been much easier, less work, and less stress to not make an little slip into a big deal. now its on everyones mind, people have left, people are looking into other boards.. soon this board will seem like a ghost town if everyone is policed for any little offensive thing they do.

i feel all the attention the mods have put on cursing has made more problems. instead of the occasional person upset, now we have people at each others throats. this one is deffinetly a learning expierence for all parties involved.

Well said.

This place does feel more like a schoolhouse than a boad of collectors nowadays...

I think the mods need to lighten up, and we all need to use a little more common sense.

crimsonhawk
12-15-2004, 02:17 PM
If my memory is right, the avatar before the finger giving smiley wasn't the mooning Cartman, it was a Nazi wareagle with the swastika removed. People did complain about that because even without that one symbol it was easily recognizable as being Nazi. And anyone living in a formerly occupied country should be able to understand that symbol would upset people.


Hmmm...My avatar since the board change has been a German ME-262 with all the historical "markings" (albeit, teeny tiny ones)-not because I'm trying to be a jerk, but because I love vintage aircraft, and there isn't a cooler WW2 plane than this one IMHO.


--So if anyone is offended by that, please let me know.

thanks
:)

acmirro
12-15-2004, 04:32 PM
Jeffrey brought it up and you lied about is stating I had several warnings. I posted an e-mail proving that statement was incorrect but Dockingbay removed it.


This guy I know had a friend who walked into a construction site and touched an electric fence. The poor guy got zapped with 20,000 volts.

The guy I know want to the same site, walked past the security guard, ignored the big sign that said WARNING LIVE WIRE DO NOT TOUCH and touched the same fence.
Then he told the security guard it was his fault because he wasn’t told not top touch the fence by the guard.

You read the rules on avatars, you HAD to know it was wrong and yet you still had some that were not acceptable. You read the rules, and had seen other people get edited for similar things. You are intelligent enough to know what happens next.

There is no untruth about me saying you were warned. Any person who gets banned from here on in has had more than enough fair warning. Pretending you are right because no one officially sent you a "Naughty Naughty!!" is just silly.

Oh, and the above story is a fable; just a story intended to entertain and educate.

frenchy
12-15-2004, 09:32 PM
Well i haven't chimed in much lately and i know see why i stopped posting. There is a small group of morons, yes morons, that want to try to be rebelious. Sorry guys, its childish. Swearing- not needed, lude avatars- not needed, general stupidity- not needed. I dont know why both sides don't stop. Each side could EASILY say ive said my peace, i'm done. Some things in life aren't worth fighting over, and this is one of them.

Ridureyu
12-15-2004, 11:33 PM
But when I see a post signed with 'God bless us all', I think that's uncalled for either.



I got in trouble for having a non-religious quote from martin Luther in my signature, purely because Luther himself is associated with religion.

So, your illustration doesn't work - religion IS considered to be offensive, and thus it is blocked/removed when it pops up.

starrcommand
12-16-2004, 01:22 AM
If my memory is right, the avatar before the finger giving smiley wasn't the mooning Cartman, it was a Nazi wareagle with the swastika removed. People did complain about that because even without that one symbol it was easily recognizable as being Nazi. And anyone living in a formerly occupied country should be able to understand that symbol would upset people.



Ok I didnt read this b4 but now that i did you might want to think about history before just banning someone for an eagle avatar. For one the eagle has been flown under almost every major military in history. Its a symbol of power and thats why most militaries have used it. And those military powers generally have many variations of it as well. So with out seeing which one he used, and I can probably assume its the one in most movies and television shows, whether he used a similar one to the nazi flag or not. And not all nazi german flags used the swastika either or the same eagle. So to make an assumption on the fact that he used the nazi german flag is to show ignorance. After all many eagle flags take the same form. Heck one of the nazi german flags look like the USA presidential eagle, wings outstretched w/ a shield on its chest and arrows in one hand I know the USA has olive branches, representing peace, but I dont know off hand what the nazi symbol had in its other claw I dont think it was olive branches I think it had another weapon. And the one in which you, the mods, assumed was a nazi german symbol was probably the one that some what resemble the native american eagle symbol, very blocky in appearance with wings outstretched (there are many variations on this by the way). And if Im not mistaken I beleive it is technically the roman eagle, after all thats where the nazi germans took the symbol from only they added the swastika so i guess technically he had a roman symbol not a nazi german one. But after all if someone complains i guess you have to do something about it no matter whether someone is ignorant to something or not?

And I suppose that will end my smidge of a history lesson for the day. A lot of this history lesson came from my history classes in high school, which was many moons ago, and college. And by the way if Im incorrect about something please correct me(just make sure your correct when you correct me),it does happen from time to time I suppose.

Alkie Ewok
12-16-2004, 02:26 AM
I think, or at least would like to think, that the newer mods have done a better job of um, being moderators of the boards since they'd started. Ya definitely don't get paid for being a mod, but seem to do a decent job considering it's a large board system. Sadly, a lot of it involves common sense on the part of people posting, and it's surprisingly rare.

As for the people that complain about avatars, they could just do like me and disable showing them so that pages load faster ;)

GungHo
12-16-2004, 06:52 AM
Ok I didnt read this b4 but now that i did you might want to think about history before just banning someone for an eagle avatar. For one the eagle has been flown under almost every major military in history. Its a symbol of power and thats why most militaries have used it. And those military powers generally have many variations of it as well. So with out seeing which one he used, and I can probably assume its the one in most movies and television shows, whether he used a similar one to the nazi flag or not. And not all nazi german flags used the swastika either or the same eagle. So to make an assumption on the fact that he used the nazi german flag is to show ignorance. After all many eagle flags take the same form. Heck one of the nazi german flags look like the USA presidential eagle, wings outstretched w/ a shield on its chest and arrows in one hand I know the USA has olive branches, representing peace, but I dont know off hand what the nazi symbol had in its other claw I dont think it was olive branches I think it had another weapon. And the one in which you, the mods, assumed was a nazi german symbol was probably the one that some what resemble the native american eagle symbol, very blocky in appearance with wings outstretched (there are many variations on this by the way). And if Im not mistaken I beleive it is technically the roman eagle, after all thats where the nazi germans took the symbol from only they added the swastika so i guess technically he had a roman symbol not a nazi german one. But after all if someone complains i guess you have to do something about it no matter whether someone is ignorant to something or not?

And I suppose that will end my smidge of a history lesson for the day. A lot of this history lesson came from my history classes in high school, which was many moons ago, and college. And by the way if Im incorrect about something please correct me(just make sure your correct when you correct me),it does happen from time to time I suppose.

Do you know much about WW2 Nazi Germany and the Nazi political party???? If you do then find a picture of the German nazi party's eagle crest/swastika logo and you'll have BG's avatar. BG cleverly removed the swastika........but that eagle crest is CLEARLY recognized as a piece of Nazi Germany history.....

THAT's why it was removed.......

dockingbay97
12-16-2004, 07:26 AM
Ok I didnt read this b4 but now that i did you might want to think about history before just banning someone for an eagle avatar. For one the eagle has been flown under almost every major military in history. Its a symbol of power and thats why most militaries have used it. And those military powers generally have many variations of it as well. So with out seeing which one he used, and I can probably assume its the one in most movies and television shows, whether he used a similar one to the nazi flag or not. And not all nazi german flags used the swastika either or the same eagle. So to make an assumption on the fact that he used the nazi german flag is to show ignorance. After all many eagle flags take the same form. Heck one of the nazi german flags look like the USA presidential eagle, wings outstretched w/ a shield on its chest and arrows in one hand I know the USA has olive branches, representing peace, but I dont know off hand what the nazi symbol had in its other claw I dont think it was olive branches I think it had another weapon. And the one in which you, the mods, assumed was a nazi german symbol was probably the one that some what resemble the native american eagle symbol, very blocky in appearance with wings outstretched (there are many variations on this by the way). And if Im not mistaken I beleive it is technically the roman eagle, after all thats where the nazi germans took the symbol from only they added the swastika so i guess technically he had a roman symbol not a nazi german one. But after all if someone complains i guess you have to do something about it no matter whether someone is ignorant to something or not?

And I suppose that will end my smidge of a history lesson for the day. A lot of this history lesson came from my history classes in high school, which was many moons ago, and college. And by the way if Im incorrect about something please correct me(just make sure your correct when you correct me),it does happen from time to time I suppose.


So here we are, accusing the mods of just assuming through your own assumption.

Trust me when I say the mods here don't just act on any and every complaint without putting thought behind that act. To say that is what we do is to say we are an ignorant batch of mods. Research was done and that eagle was identified as what it was. I too went to high school and have a college degree. We know there are a lot of different eagles used through history and knew we needed to see if the complaint held water.

And in the end even if it wasn't a Nazi German eagle, if it so closely resembles one that it makes people uncomfortable, why can't we ask for it to be removed? We are talking about a highly sensititive subject and should act on the side of reason.

In the end it is in the best interest of the board not to have that eagle here. Why make the board uncomfortable to others with it?

And as representitives of this site, it is our call in the end.

It is easy to be a Monday morning quarterback now.

starrcommand
12-16-2004, 11:15 AM
So here we are, accusing the mods of just assuming through your own assumption.

Trust me when I say the mods here don't just act on any and every complaint without putting thought behind that act. To say that is what we do is to say we are an ignorant batch of mods. Research was done and that eagle was identified as what it was. I too went to high school and have a college degree. We know there are a lot of different eagles used through history and knew we needed to see if the complaint held water.

And in the end even if it wasn't a Nazi German eagle, if it so closely resembles one that it makes people uncomfortable, why can't we ask for it to be removed? We are talking about a highly sensititive subject and should act on the side of reason.

In the end it is in the best interest of the board not to have that eagle here. Why make the board uncomfortable to others with it?

And as representitives of this site, it is our call in the end.

It is easy to be a Monday morning quarterback now.

Actually if you read my question at the end I wasnt accusing the mods of being ignorant or jumping to assumptions it was other individuals who complained, i mean just because they want to see a nazi symbol doesnt mean it is, poor romans have to take all this because the nazi's were unoriginal. As for your decision to remove it you can do what u want it is ur site. I just dont agree with it. And yes it would be easy to be a monday morning quarterback if i were wrong but I wasnt. You removed it because someone took at as the wrong thing. In fact it wasnt a nazi symbol its a roman symbol, the roman eagle of war. Like I said thats where the nazi's took it from only they added a nazi symbol to it and made that new symbol one of the nazi party. But I guess history buffs who like the romans shouldnt use any of the roman symbols because the nazi's took quite a few from them. But of course the romans did there share of ravaging and pillaging of the land didnt they.
And no I wasnt knocking your education, my major point was that my information is there for anyone who cared enough to know about it before they jumped up and made an assumption that someone was being ignorant themselves. After all if you cant use things that are going to make someone uncomfortable then heck I cant put up an avatar for the Washington Redskins(I dont like them anyways the Ravens rule this beltway) due to the fact that Redskins is a derogatory comment towards native americans. And in the same manner I cant put up an avatar about the rule of thumb. Because in early america the rule of thumb meant that u could hit your wife with a switch as long as it was no thicker than ur thumb and this might upset a woman. I guess I should stop using that phrase before someone yells at me! Or a picture of 1970 dodge charger painted orange like that from the dukes of hazard because they were always in trouble w/ the law. JK. Actually because it would draw a similarity to the general lee because it dawned a southern flag. And like I said we couldnt use the presidential seal because of the things the USA has done to other cultures, IE native americans, japanese immigrants, irish immigrant, chinese immigrants, african american ancestors and a lot of others and because of its similarity to a nazi symbol. And can i not put up pictures of any of the presidents I mean most of them did some pretty crappy stuff and heaven for bid I put one up of the current president I mean ppl have complaining about ppl putting his picture up since the election. But I guess until someone puts 2 + 2 together and becomes irate about it I guess those are ok right? I mean if they are innocently( and this is an assumption ) displayed and they arent the actual derogatory symbol then we should live in fear that they may be taken away and we are put on suspension? After all there arent that many things that someone wont become offended by that has merit other than something like I had a transformers hand stuck up my nose as a child and it gives me the willies to see that symbol now a days. I actually go into convulsions because of seeing it.
And I can go on and on about symbols and historical references and about how things can be taken as derogatory all day. There are literally millions of things that upset ppl and have merit but that doesnt mean that those things should be taken down because someone happens to notice something and go OMG that upsets me. Heck the use of OMG might upset someone due to its reference to god.
And gungho I do happen to know a lot about WWI and WWII because they are the 2 greatest battle of the last century. And the nazi party's crest is actually and eagle leaning toward your right with a shield on it. The one I believe is in question is the nazi war eagle which is nothing more than a roman symbol with a nazi symbol added to its claws and with that symbol on it it becomes a nazi symbol otherwise its a roman symbol. But as you might have noticed im not limited to my history.

dockingbay97
12-16-2004, 11:26 AM
Wow, I cannot even read that long run on sentence. Take a breath dude. My eyes are crossed now.

Look you can justify whatever you want. In the end it is our (the staff's) decision. Our decision is to keep this board as family friendly and as least offensive to the whole as possible.

starrcommand, you seem to have a major bone to pick with this board and its staff based on several of your past comments.

We do the best we can to keep this a civilized family friendly place. If you feel that our work to do this is not for you, then maybe this board is not for you.

You seem to me at least to be angry. To be angry over something like this board and whether we will allow a Nazi eagle as an avatar just doesn't seem worth it to me.

Chill everyone and enjoy GI Joe.

dockingbay97
12-16-2004, 11:41 AM
This board should not make anyone angry but it does.

You can name the reason:

1. I hate Censorship
2. I hate the OCS troubles
3. I hate the Infantry pack drama
4. I hate that I can't find toy x
5. I hate new scuplts
6. I hate t-crotches/action features
7. I hate Hasbro
8. I hate people who hate repros
9. I hate army builders
10. I hate scalpers
11. I hate the mods
12. I hate Wal-Mart
13. I hate online store x
14. I hate KB Toys
15. I hate dockingbay97
16. I hate (__________).

Take a moment and look around this board. A real hard look. There is a tremendous amount of anger.

We are talking about toys here. We collect them because we like them. Why all this anger?

I question any of you that have this pent up anger and why you continue to be part of the GI Joe collecting community that causes this anger.

Is it really worth all this anger and high blood pressure?

Why can't we get this board back to what it is supposed to be about?

Not about someone's political agendas.

Not about someone's religious beliefs.

Not about the need to curse.

But back to the basics - GI Joe and why we collect.

Yo Joe!

starrcommand
12-16-2004, 11:55 AM
I never said I was super at english! :p

Actually im not angry in the least bit. I just dont agree w/ the decision to remove something because it wasnt what it was. It just a difference of opinion. I mean if someone has an issue w/ the roman empire then i think they should take it up w/ Niro (I dont know how to spell his name). My only point, and concern, is once this sort of thing starts where someone takes something the wrong way then it will never stop. I mean if its valid like they put up the actuall nazi war eagle then yeah thats a bit much, but to put up something else that isnt what someone assumes it is then IMO its wrong to remove it just becuase it shares a resemblence to something. And he didnt put up the nazi war eagle. It would be like someone putting up a pic of their BF or GF who resembles a horrible person like Jeffery Dammer (or however you spell his name) and telling them they cant put up that pic. That was my point about all the different symbols that can be taken the wrong way or offend someone.

And I commend the staff for what they do here. I know I wouldnt want to have to police nearly 5000 ppl for what they do and say here or make the tough decisions that u do. I have no quarrels with anyone on this board. And normally I'll let something go but this just happens to be one of those things that I dont. Its not against any member, mod, or the boards. Its just something that annoys the heck out of me.

GungHo
12-16-2004, 12:09 PM
Holy Run on sentances Batman! Starrcommand, slow down a bit. Proper punctuation,spelling and grammer can be your friend :P

Let's be realistic.......growing up this past century......exactly how many people do you think actually have knowledge about the Greeks and Romans??? Now exactly how many people do you think have some recollection about WW2....either by witnessing it first hand....or by studying it?? That's the point I was making......it was an eagle...yes......BUT, it was the manner that it was used and displayed in present times. Hitler also used many symbols during his time to display for his regime..... does it change the symbol's perception once Hitler used it for his party??? You bet it does.......

I love readying,studying and watching film about the Civil War,WW2 and Nam ...... History was my favorite subject in school........


Nick is absolutely right though.....waaaaaaay too much hate going around lately....heck, these are toys that everyone is collecting.....but you'd think that we are all members of an anti semetic forum with all of the hate being spewed around....lol

It's Christmas.........everyone take a moment to breathe and relax......be thankful that you even have the opportunity to buy a GI Joe figure to enjoy........ there was a time when you couldn't do so.......so remember that.

dockingbay97
12-16-2004, 12:14 PM
Actually im not angry in the least bit. I just dont agree w/ the decision to remove something because it wasnt what it was.

Can we stop with the arguement over the avatar please?

We looked at the picture of the eagle, looked at other pictures of many other eagles and it was not a roman eagle. It was obvious to the nature of the eagle - obvious. Period.

Did you even see the eagle in question?

At any rate the avatar eagle discussion is over as far as I am concerned. I am not going to argue over this anymore because you want to argue.

A couple of weeks ago when I was thinking of giving up Joes completely - this is one of the major reasons why. All the constant fighting and anger on this board.

Pete The Greek
12-16-2004, 12:30 PM
There was a point (about a year or so ago) I got fed up with the amount of crap posted on this board. I wasn't the only one based on conversations with other guys I know. I don't want nor do I care bout reading 5-10 posts on the same issue (i.e. why I can't find Cobra Infantry packs). Are people that lazy to post within the original thread or are they just trying to beat there chest and say my opinion means more (and hence I will create a thread myself to talk or bash about the same issues already brought up). I wish those threads become locked like on joecustoms.com. Maybe people will start to get the point.

Swearing alot mean you have no intellgent way of getting your point across. Yes, I swear like most people but if you did it in the work place all the time, people will think your an idiot. In a toy board, you don't need to swear. The issue with the avatars.....the mods can drop them all together if some of you continue to make a stink about it.

In the end, I only cared about doing deals and trades, just like the old classfied section of the board from years ago. The board as of today has greatly improved in terms of cleaning up the cesspool created a while back. But some of it still lingers on.

gunless
12-16-2004, 02:38 PM
ok, time for my two cents.

Do I think warning or banning someone for using asterisks as a curse word is excessive? yup.

Do I think someone should be given a warning via pm before being banned(except in the most extreme cases)? yup

Do some people on this board annoy me? yup

Do the mods have the right to enforce whatever rules they want? yup

Can I go somewhere else if I like? yup

Bottom line is, it's their board they can do what they want. That's also why I really only come here for news and to make trades. I'm alot friendlier with guys on another board, partly because the rules are a little bit freer there(still no religion or politics, and the cursing pretty much polices itself to a minimum, but it's more of a tight knit group IMO).

JeffreyKabal
12-16-2004, 02:44 PM
anyways I've noticed that anger too.
But I think it's because people get upset real fast or are afraid someone does.
It's a board with members not a school with subgroups and bullies. I dunno how this came, but people seem to be a little tight lately. Maybe because of all the problems last year has brought to all of us. Everyone is now afraid that someone might get angry or be upset. But there's no need if everybody relaxed a bit more and don't be so tight on some simple words and pictures on your tv screen.
Whomsoever get's mad on words or pictures on a screen?? Not me.
It's like having a "fight" in a chatroom...ridiculous.

Starcommand....I think we share the same thoughts about this one here.
Just allthough grammar is difficult your words are way better said then mine

Nick, off course it's your decision in the end, but listening to members may solve a lot of problems. My view on running a board is that the members make the decision. A board is in my opinion something for members, not for the owners. Without members the board is useless.
Well anyway, that's the perspective I run our board, everyone has his/her own choises. I respect that, but if asked (mostly not :)) I'll give my opinion about it. That's just the way is goes. Maybe that's the little Dutch guy in me. Saying what I think, no matter what. Some people get mad at me for that reason, but opinion are luckily free to have, and may be heared. In this case it was on this board, in this thread in these replies.

I think this discussion has come to an end. You guys run the board the way you want, but if asked for feedback...prepare yourself ;) I'll be back

Now...who's interested in a Tiger Force Sneak Peak???? I've got one for sale or trade :)

starrcommand
12-16-2004, 02:49 PM
oh oh oh oh oh. Id like a TF sneek peak! moving this to PM's

Druss
12-16-2004, 02:54 PM
I've left this thread alone for a while but I always enjoy the topic of Moderating on boards so I'll add a few comments.

Re: the Avatar, I didn't see it, I don't care to see it. Bottom line, the staff got a complaint, they looked into said complaint and felt it is potentially offensive and potentially a bad symbol. They request it gets removed, simple as that. Their site, their rules, their call. If you want to keep having custom Avatars then let it go and let them run the site the way they wish.


A couple of weeks ago when I was thinking of giving up Joes completely - this is one of the major reasons why. All the constant fighting and anger on this board.

No offense DB but welcome to the world of Board Moderation, and believe me this place is tame by some standards. It takes a thick skin and patience, if you don't have both then you can really start to annoy people.

In the below statements/comments I will be saying You, the You does not mean a specific person, more the general entity of the Moderators/Staff.

One of my beefs with the Moderation of the board is how the members are handled, I'm not talking phantom censorship that some gripe about but the fact that the majority of this board is adults but certain rules in effect are treating them like Children and as a result some are acting the part trying to rebel.

Certain things are too heavy handed and others are not addressed properly, quite often in the way you would deal with a grumpy child.

On more than one occasion I have seen users rise up and question the Moderators on various board issues, from Swearing, avatars, warnings, etc...pick a subject and the discussion happens, the Moderator will state their piece and the discussion rages. Typically it seems its only a matter of time before the Thread/Discussion is either Closed or Dropped. On more than one occasion very good, tame threads on board issues have been closed, on others its simply "And I won't discuss this anymore".

Neither of those are acceptable, especially when dealing with Adults who are having a calm and reasonable discussion. If you are going to deal with these situations in the public realm then step up to the plate and go the distance, don't start down the road and when your sick of the conversation/discussion throw out a "Because I said so" and it ends.

On at least one occasion I was involved in one such discussion where the thread was closed. I PM'd a staff member enquiring why it was closed, a very calm and reasonable PM simply asking for a reason. Never got a reply, actually as of yet I haven't received a confirmation that it was read, and this was month's ago.

In situations like these there are a few ways to resolve them.

1. Follow through, you opened the can of worms, now see it to the end.
2. Don't have these discussions publicly. If someone starts a thread asking about why their Avatar was removed then close and lockdown/remove the thread and take the discussion offline. Give them and only them the explanation. By taking it public you get threads just like this.
3. Don't end discussions on policy with the BISS statement, its rude and we are adults, close the thread and take it offline with anyone willing to discuss it.

As for the other bigger beef, yeah this one may seem like a dead horse but to me its still not right. First off, Swearing is bad, its not needed and it should be punished appropriately, that said the members should stop be treated like Children in respect to the Filter and *'s or other such symbols.

The Filter is here for a reason, if it does its job and removes the entire word then whats the problem? How is that any different than watching a show on TV that is edited for content?

In this respect the Staff is making too much work for themselves and breeding ill will by being way too hard on something so silly. What should be cracked down on is people who go around the filter by using spaces, substituting single letters with symbols, etc...those are the poeple who you should ban. When a rule is in place and someone blatantly disregards it and actively works to get around it then they should be dealt with. Not the members who get filtered like they are supposed to...this is called the middle ground and nothing annoys members off more than fellow members getting banned for having four astericks in a post.

Is there too much anger on the board? Quite possibly, one wouldn't think adults dealing with toys would have so much to be upset about but when so much $$$ is involved its inevitable. There are ways to make it better, it definetly starts with the members but they are not the only ones at fault, a little good will both ways is a good start.

As for the staff at present, I have no ill will towards any of you ,just my thoughts and observations from many years at Moderating boards that dwarf this one. Also on that note I do feel this board needs more staff on hand, specific Site or Section Moderators following a clear cut set of rules would do wonders, promote from within, members like to see the everday Joe of the board rise up and help out, they respect them more and are more willing to listen. Mods shouldn't always be the top poster or the top collector, every day Joes make good Mods too.

dockingbay97
12-16-2004, 04:58 PM
Oh, it is not the moderation that makes me think of quiting this hobby as it is the constant bickering.

All boards have it and all boards are moderated differently.

I occassionally go to a board called Survivor Sucks. I like this board when Big Brother is on tv because people keep updates on the live camera feeds.

Anyway, those mods are ruthless. If they don't like your thread or what you have to say, they call you stupid or other names and lock the thread down.

It can be quite entertaining to watch those mods yell and berate people publically and you know what?

The users of that board never complain about the mods.

Funny, uh?

GungHo
12-16-2004, 05:47 PM
Also on that note I do feel this board needs more staff on hand, specific Site or Section Moderators following a clear cut set of rules would do wonders, promote from within, members like to see the everday Joe of the board rise up and help out, they respect them more and are more willing to listen. Mods shouldn't always be the top poster or the top collector, every day Joes make good Mods too.


Druss, very well thought out post man.....

As a side note....I think you may be onto something in regards to the seperate sections being individually manned perhaps........that's definately food for thought I'd say ;)

Druss
12-16-2004, 05:57 PM
Thanks Gungo, as to your point I agree and hopefully something like that will be thrown out there.


Oh, it is not the moderation that makes me think of quiting this hobby as it is the constant bickering.

Part of the bickering could easily be due in part to the moderation. I browse Joe Customs on occasion, that place seems pretty laid back as a whole and the Mods are very laid back as well, even doing some light swearing(4 letter d, 3 letter a, etc).

As for the Mods/Users on the other board...and the point is? Every board is different and has a different relationship between users and staff. That relationship is typically built up over time depending on the general atmosphere of the board and how they treat each other. In the case you make odds are its been that way for a while and the users are well aware of how the Mods act and it also sounds as if the Mods leave no middle ground.

JustinBarnhill
12-16-2004, 07:54 PM
I think druss has one of the best posts in this thread. I think he pretty much nailed the ick on this board and the complaints that several members here have.


It can be quite entertaining to watch those mods yell and berate people publically and you know what?

The users of that board never complain about the mods.

Funny, uh?

Not really and I'm glad this board hasn't spiraled that far down....yet.

Ridureyu
12-16-2004, 09:44 PM
Ooh! Ooh! I can do an "I hate" list, too!


1. I hate heavy traffic
2. I hate flu shots
3. I hate sibling rivalry
4. I hate murderers
5. I hate terrorism
6. I hate drug abuse
7. I hate I hate I hate peter pan!!!! (ten points if you get the joke)

dockingbay97
12-17-2004, 01:13 AM
As for the Mods/Users on the other board...and the point is? .

There was no point, I just find it funny how they run it and the reaction or the lack there of.

danyanda
12-17-2004, 08:05 AM
On more than one occasion I have seen users rise up and question the Moderators on various board issues, from Swearing, avatars, warnings, etc...pick a subject and the discussion happens, the Moderator will state their piece and the discussion rages. Typically it seems its only a matter of time before the Thread/Discussion is either Closed or Dropped. On more than one occasion very good, tame threads on board issues have been closed, on others its simply "And I won't discuss this anymore".

Neither of those are acceptable, especially when dealing with Adults who are having a calm and reasonable discussion. If you are going to deal with these situations in the public realm then step up to the plate and go the distance, don't start down the road and when your sick of the conversation/discussion throw out a "Because I said so" and it ends.



I disagree. I feel that if the mods closed this thread today it would be a great saving of bandwidth and would have no negative effect of the community whatsoever. In fact, that is what they should do. Why? The same people are saying the same things over and over again. The mods have opinions, policies, and ways of enforcing those policies. I think that those have all been pretty clearly stated. Some board members disagree with the policies or the interpretation of those policies. I think that in four pages they have had their say as well.
There is no point in discussing something when neither side is going to budge. There is no point in carrying on this thread to have the same six people say the same things to the mods just to have the mods give them the same answer that they have been giving all along.
I think that I can speak for all of the mods when I say that any avatar featuring Hasbro/Marvel/Devil's Due GI Joe art is acceptable. Now, if I could just figure out how to make the stupid avatar work.

Druss
12-17-2004, 08:28 AM
I feel that if the mods closed this thread today it would be a great saving of bandwidth and would have no negative effect of the community whatsoever.

I disagree. Not everyone is vocal about the staff and moderation here, some were in the past but are not now, one possible reason is over time any such questions pretty much get the cold shoulder, so the average member who doesn't like the way things are run either doesn't bother to say anything or just leaves.

The Community is affected though, in the time I have been on this board traffic has gone down, at any given time right now you barely have 10 members on and you can make a post in General Discussion after the last post its still there 3 days later. A few months ago that never happened. You could post something and it would be off the front page in the same day. Yes part of that is more forums so people are posting certain topics elsewhere but even the side forums aren't attracting more than 1 or 2 active threads a day.


There is no point in discussing something when neither side is going to budge.

Again I disagree, this board is nothing without the members. YoJoe as a resource is top notch, it always will be, everyone knows about it and goes to it. I still find it hard to believe that the site that is the best RAH Joe Resource on the web(hands down) does not have the busiest Message Board attached to it. By sheer traffic alone there is no way it shouldn't have the most traffic...but it doesn't. In addition there is strife on the boards, even DB admits there is a lot of hatred, annoyance, etc going aroudn, the board/community has issues, so instead of discussing them and maybe compromising we'll just close the thread and move on?


There is no point in carrying on this thread to have the same six people say the same things to the mods just to have the mods give them the same answer that they have been giving all along.

To breed new discussion, the Mods opened up the public debate and like I said they either need to stick with it or take it offline and answer people's questions there. I came into the conversation late and I feel I had some valid points/beefs and seeing as I took the time to voice them I would appreciate someone taking the time to comment.


I think that I can speak for all of the mods when I say that any avatar featuring Hasbro/Marvel/Devil's Due GI Joe art is acceptable. Now, if I could just figure out how to make the stupid avatar work.

Agreed 100%, my initial post on the subject had nothing to do with Avatars though, to me thats not a issue, a member broke the rules and was called on it. As for why yours won't work...are you sure its the right size? They have strict pixel limitations and if its not in that range I don't think it will even accept it for upload.


There was no point, I just find it funny how they run it and the reaction or the lack there of.

Ok...so does that mean my entire post is pretty much getting ignored?

Stungun
12-18-2004, 09:29 AM
You mean showing someone your middle finger doesn't mean you think he's #1...? I've got some apologizing to do. For the most part this is a great board, not much flaming, and there isn't a mob rump-smooching mentality like some places. you just gotta respect house rules, y'know?

And not to be a pain or anything, but that upcoming Overkill fig has a certain eagle on his chest. I demand he be banned from the archive! :p :D

bluebikerboy1
12-18-2004, 05:10 PM
Wow This Thread Hit Over 100.

foe hammer
12-20-2004, 02:03 AM
I understand that this is a lost cause. I'm not trying to tell people not to post or anything like that. The mods created this thread, so why not let us have at it. I have been positing for a few years, and I do it rarely. I basically just comment on things that interest me. This interests me so heres what I have to say. At this point every argument or problem that the "regulars" have brought up have been shot down by the mods. Now they have all have been shot down with good arguments and good reason. We all know this, and if we choose to ignore it, then we are just picking a fight. The rules are there for you in black and white. You may challenge the rules in a respective manner, but don't break them in disrespect. Thats how things are done in America, and Belgium and the netherlands or wherever you may be from. You break the rules, then you break the law by which you are sworn to live by. You think something is wrong, take it to the hierarchy. Don't take matters into your own hands by just cursing b/c you feel "thats who I am." If you feel that you can't have enough self-control to not curse so that you can put some concerned minorities at ease, then your gonna break the law, and you'll get penalized or banned or whatever you wanna call it. If religon is unacceptable, then anti-religion is also. Don't hear ya'll gripin about not being able to excercise your religious beliefs. So be smart and mature, and if you want to express your feelings then use one of the icons available in the list below your post. Good night

gunless
12-21-2004, 07:02 PM
ok, I know it's your board and you can do what you want, but this is ridiculous:

http://forums.yojoe.com/showthread.php?t=17691

here's a guy admitting he's a bad bidder(at least I think he is - I cant tell because his post was edited by a mod) and a discussion (no flaming, name calling cursing, etc.) of it, and it was edited and locked! What the heck is the purpose of this? Now we're protecting people from outing themselves? I'm just about ready to give up on this board....

dockingbay97
12-21-2004, 09:11 PM
ok, I know it's your board and you can do what you want, but this is ridiculous:

http://forums.yojoe.com/showthread.php?t=17691

here's a guy admitting he's a bad bidder(at least I think he is - I cant tell because his post was edited by a mod) and a discussion (no flaming, name calling cursing, etc.) of it, and it was edited and locked! What the heck is the purpose of this? Now we're protecting people from outing themselves? I'm just about ready to give up on this board....

That user edited his own post to remove his own outing. I locked it because at that point, the thread makes no sense. I mean "....................." tells no one anything.

So what should I have done? Let people reply over and over asking what ".........." meant?

Why not ask me what happened via pm or email before telling me I was ridiculous or not when you don't know what happened?

So if locking a thread that no longer as meaning makes you want to leave the board, well......do what you feel you have to.

Serious over reacting there.

gunless
12-21-2004, 09:19 PM
my mistake- I saw it was edited by you, and figured you removed it.I apologize.

now here's a jerk who need to be censored:
stad wrote:

Oh man, I was just going to put up one of these, but mine is not a war hero. Mine is an American Infidel War Criminal soldier, and he DOES come in desert gear, including accessories he got by raping the land of the peace-loving Iraqis!! Now I'll have to wait a while to post it, so as not to flood the market with these things!
__________________

in this thread:
http://forums.yojoe.com/showthread.php?t=17751&page=1&pp=10
I believe this violates the political discussion rules

RotterdamTerrorCorps
12-22-2004, 06:13 AM
Stad tries to make a 'funny' reply referring to the auction that was outed.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=2467&item=5945050090&rd=1

In the auction this very 'civilized' text can be found: "this g.i. joe is a real war hero. killed many of irakieee enemy. and a fue enemy bistanders- just cause they were bi and standing".

During the discussion people are laughing about these lines, but when somebody gives a reply in the other direction, all of a sudden he needs to be censored? Explain me why.

Personally I think both texts are sick!

JeffreyKabal
12-22-2004, 07:07 AM
what about your nick Neal?
Terror Corps? oh boy oh boyyy :)
No just kidding.
What if someone get's somehow offended by RTC's Nick??
Should he take another nick then??
I remembered a guy who had as a nick "Satan" referred to the figure.
People felt offended and he had to take another one.
to me that's "blah blah blah"
Anyway his name is a group of dj's from Rotterdam so no mistakes are made.
With all this cencorship people have to be very carefull with posting. Anyone can be offended in any way. What if a Mexican collector comes aboard and his name is Jesus (some of those guys are named that way). Does he have to take another name then? Satan had.

I think yojoe should for a start be less severe.
There are always people who feel somehow offended. You just can't make everyone happy with a number of members like this. People always have different views on things.

Druss said:
--
Ok...so does that mean my entire post is pretty much getting ignored?
--

I dunno, but I missed any further reply on that.

Druss
12-22-2004, 08:57 AM
Yeah I missed that as well JeffreyKabal, I try and have a reasonable & adult discussion about the board policies and issues and spend a fair amount of time typing it up but never get a response...

Druss
12-22-2004, 08:59 AM
I must also voice my agreement of JeffreyKabal's comments, on a board based around Toys which are at war and which do have some oddball names, i.e. Satan, things are a bit tight in certain aspects. Just because a user complains about something doesn't mean it always needs to be changed, as a mostly adult Userbase all we ask is a little consistency and a little lee-way. If someone really gets carried away and breaks the rules then knock it down, otherwise let adults be adults without policing every little thing.

dockingbay97
12-22-2004, 09:15 AM
Yeah I missed that as well JeffreyKabal, I try and have a reasonable & adult discussion about the board policies and issues and spend a fair amount of time typing it up but never get a response...

No it means I for one am tired of talking about this same subject over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over..........

To sum it all over again.....

Such simple rules here and there are the ones that anger people:

1. No religion
2. No politics
3. No swearing

Everyone knows about the rules and has to agree to them before joining.

This is a board about toys (GI Joe in particular), not about religion, politics or swearing. Want to talk about those things? Find a board about those things.

You can't slip and type a curse word. You can slip and say one but not type one. To type a curse word takes a deliberate act of mulitple strikes on a keyboard and watching the word as it appears across the screen.

I am no longer going to reply to any more posts in this thread. I am done with it. I have made my position clear and I think the rest of the mods more or less agree with the points I just made.

And one more thing before I go from this thread, a dozen or so of you think that the mods are ruining yojoe for you. Think of it this way. The dozen or so of you (I am not pointing fingers or implying certain people) are also ruining yojoe for the mods and many other users.

JeffreyKabal
12-22-2004, 09:24 AM
C'mon Nick,

It's about people being offended so easy.
Just because I choose Satan and Jesus didn't mean it has something to do with religion.
It was an example. It's just that tiny things become major things.
I used RTC for an example as well. Terror Corps that's how I came to the Satan figure.
This is NO Swearing, NO Politics and NO Religion.

This is another point which has value to this conversation.
The point is that people can feel offended by anything.

I just hope that this won't become a summerschool for boys where they learn how to be the perfect civilian.

RotterdamTerrorCorps
12-22-2004, 10:25 AM
Indeed, Rotterdam Terror Corps is a group of hardcore DJ's and performers. For a proper idea what type of music we are talking about: http://www.mastersofhardcore.com/

By the way:
Why is the word for a female feline banned? "I was petting my female reproductive organ last night" sounds more wrong to me than the original innocent word.

Druss
12-22-2004, 10:53 AM
No it means I for one am tired of talking about this same subject over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over..........

Sorry I must have missed the part where my particular issues with the site policies/practices/moderation were discussed...

Never once in my thread did I debate the particular rules about Swearing, Religion, Avatars, Politics, etc...in fact in this thread I have defended the sites policies on them. I have no issues with any of those particular policies.

If my thread had actually been read then the point about enforcement of policies and the way the staff(won't point any fingers here) deals with the members would have come through and not complaints about the general policies.


I am no longer going to reply to any more posts in this thread. I am done with it. I have made my position clear and I think the rest of the mods more or less agree with the points I just made.

And this ladies and gentleman is exactly what my above points were about. The fact that questions about the enforcement and handling of policies get lumped in with general complaints about said policies and get totally ignored. I could care less that curse words are banned, I don't swear, yes some words are included which are silly but if I use them I change them, no big deal. What bothers me is certain staff members(not pointing any fingers here) won't discuss the particular issues in a reasonable manner. I am not asking that the filter be removed, I am asking for discussion about the enforcement of it and for the members of this site to be treated like adults, which almost all of them are.


And one more thing before I go from this thread, a dozen or so of you think that the mods are ruining yojoe for you. Think of it this way. The dozen or so of you (I am not pointing fingers or implying certain people) are also ruining yojoe for the mods and many other users.

Once again I agree with the policies of the site...

That said...aren't moderators supposed to be impartial? Its not exactly cool to say something like the above, as a moderator you are put in a position of power among equals. If you don't like certain members thats fine, but as a Moderator you need to keep it off the boards and keep it private. If members question the policies, what you have done, etc then its your job to answer those questions.

I'm not saying all of the questions in this thread have been reasonable, some are off the wall and should be pointed straight at policies but when reasonable, real questions come up how does it look to the members when the staff replies with "I don't like your questions so I'm taking my toys and going somewhere else"...or as I alluded to in my thread, this has basically turned into yet another "Because I said so".

Wow...thanks, glad to see you care.

I would actually love to hear what the other staff members think about this, no offense but certain Mods(again not pointing any fingers) don't exactly give this board the best reputation and have driven members away to other boards. As the owners of the site I would think they would care about this sort of thing.

Druss
12-22-2004, 11:38 AM
For the record some of the above thread came off harsher than intended and for that I apologize. The general tone of the thread is still accurate though and I really do hope that these things can be discussed and resolved rather than ignored.

starrcommand
12-22-2004, 04:44 PM
Ive got to chime in once again.

I have to agree w/ Druss on how mods in general shouldnt just blow things off or just ignore it all together. Mods should at the very least give their explanations and back them up. That is their responsibility. Mods cant just run from a discussion because if they do then they just upset the members on the board and make themselves look bad. It will also cause ppl to loose faith in the board.

JeffreyKabal
12-22-2004, 05:07 PM
I agree too.
I think many will.

Why aren't the other mods (not just Nick and Jeff) posting?
You are all also part of the board mods.
Is it just me or do I only see Nick and Jeff posting in these kind of threads?
Don't the other mods have something usefull to say in this one.
It seems that people do care how the boards gets runned.
And this thread is getting longer and longer simply because replies are read through quickly and advices comments or any other remark just gets overread or ignored.
Well that's how it comes over to me, and so did it by Druss.

Nick, again you say certain people...etcetera etcetera.
When we had a conversation on our board some time ago you said exactly the same that some members of my board are picking on yojoe. Why don't you just simply say their names. It's fair when people get to deffend themselves. I said it back then and it also got ignored.
I gave up back then, but because this thread is about the same thing again I'll ask again.
Who are the members who are according to you picking on yojoe and it's staff?
Let them explain certain things.
I did it back then to clear my name, but I actually get the feeling you didn't care and you still see me as some kind of Dutch revolt leader.
And I think some other people see me like that too.
Why would someone post something like: I'm getting tired that the same people over and over again have their little revolt to yojoe or something like that? Who are those "rebels"?

and all, please stop the finger pointing thing. We all got the point now. We're not pointing to anyone. Like I said before, you should be carefull what you say overhere, so everyone is repeating the same sentence over and over again, because they are scarred to offend someone.

dockingbay97
12-22-2004, 05:19 PM
And once again I am drug back in.

starrcommand, I really feel I cannot make you happy no matter what I do. You seem to more or less want to just pick an arguement with me - at least that is how you come off to me.

JeffreyKabal, I don't want to name names of the people I see as trouble as it is not fair to them or the board as it is only my dumb opinion.

I didn't ignore or blow off Druss. I just feel I cannot address his concerns. I was hoping other mods/admins could say something.

Right now I am a bit overwhelmed by being the whipping boy of this board.

I want to read/mod toy posts and do the occassional give away and not have to be beat up in the process. I don't want to have to fight in this thread over the same old issues. I can't even lock this thread or else people like you starrcommand will be screaming even more.

So it boils down to this and really this.

There are a group of people that use this board that think I am pure evil (really I know you think I am a fill in your adjective here).

I am not really. I am a smart alleck at times and a little blunt but I never mean to come off as a fill in the blank___________.

But the constant role of defending myself and the boards rules is getting old.

I have people yelling at me because of the rules.

I have people yelling at me because I locked posts that became meaningless with posts of ............

And then people are getting mad because I cannot answer their questions.

I am not going to make something up and try to feed it to you when I don't know.

And now lets look back on history and the moderators of this board. A lot of them left or went into highly diminished roles because of all the constant bickering and the this sucks here.

After a while people just give up.

All I want to do is read/mod posts, give away something now and again, sell the occassional trinket and work with toy companies to get us the scoop on GI Joe products. DST choose us first to showcase their upcoming products in part to the relationship I have been building with them. That is the kind of stuff I like to do to make this a better place and not things like banning people who can't seem not to swear. I would sleep better if I never had to ban anyone, ever again.

Then I have to constantly keep an eye peeled for the same old ripoff artists who keep registering here to steal more from users. I hate that we have to constantly battle those guys.

As much as I know I am seen as the devil here, that is not my intent by any means and I don't think I need to be the focus of the same old beatings over stuff.

So my need to take a break from this thread is not to ignore anyone, I just need a break from it for a bit.

My intentions are for the good of the board.

And remember since I have the shirt - I KNOW KUNG FU!!!

JeffreyKabal
12-22-2004, 05:32 PM
I know your intentions are good Nick.
No need to feel bad about that one.
But it can be discussed, and all we want were answers.
Miscommunication can be a huge problem.
And you think that people see you as a devil, what about me?
I always get the feeling I am, because I just can't shut my mouth and jump in every topic that goes about opinions.
I was also hoping other mods could talk with the members about things like this.
First Jeff dealt with all these matters, you probably know many critics he got.
Now your posting a lot in these kind of matters, so I understand why you get the feeling your seen as a devil.
But I also said that no one is pointing to anyone in particular (well sometimes but of it is it is abvious).
This is just about moderating so I think every moderater takes part in it.
But then again, some mods are seen walking in the jungle 9 months ago and nobody ever saw them again :)

dockingbay97
12-22-2004, 05:35 PM
To read your board sometime Jeffery, Jeff and I both would seem like the most evil people walk the planet behind only one other. That is why I stay away from there - it is the home to the I Hate Dockingbay97 Fan Club.

JeffreyKabal
12-22-2004, 05:48 PM
No it isn't :)

As far as I know there are only 2 people who actually don't like you.
You probably know who they are.
One of them doesn't even visit yojoe anymore and the other is keeping his mouth shut.
But you know we almost have no rules on our board and cencorship doesn't exist (up to a point off course, no extreme porn and such).
Name calling, I mean real name calling is just childish and we had disussions which went about sensetive things I never saw real name calling. So you can visit it with no fear :)

The thing with Jeff was solved a long time ago, as I remember correctly it was a misunderstanding. No need to bring bad times up again :)

Druss
12-22-2004, 11:36 PM
Part of the reason you are always targeted on issues like this DB isn't necessarily your fault...when you are really the only Staff Memeber people see on a regular basis they start to associate you with all things board related, whether justified or not.

In the instance of the posts I had made, I had hoped someone from the staff would respond, as no one did but you were around I made the same mistake when in reality your out there as the only person but its not really your place to answer all of the queries.

As for the issues of the board, Mods being driven away, etc...well the site needs more staff, its really as simple as that. I know there are issues with just adding poeple but thats what really needs to be done, 3-4 new Mods are needed, all promoted from within your average joe user base and the place needs to be put in order.

dockingbay97
12-23-2004, 12:49 AM
As for the issues of the board, Mods being driven away, etc...well the site needs more staff, its really as simple as that. I know there are issues with just adding poeple but thats what really needs to be done, 3-4 new Mods are needed, all promoted from within your average joe user base and the place needs to be put in order.


I am working on that now - see no ignoring :)