I just have a quick question:

I thought yojoe did not recognize midnight chinese figures??

Why then, is the tigerforce steel brigade figure listed as preproduction in the archives? This figure is not "preproduction" to any figure, and just as stated in its description comes from "unknown chinese origins".

I am not against the recognition of midnight chinese figures, just curious as to why yojoe chooses to pick and choose the ones that they allow into their archives.

anybody?

on the same token...the yellow techno viper is listed as a variant to the 1994 version of the figure. This figure certainly is not a variant. Even if a moc one DID turn up, it would definitely be a preproduction card job. I am also curious as to why the green gears is not recognized in the archives, as it is very similar in terms of rarity/production/variance/timeperiod as the techno viper.

-saboteur

I think you're not allowed to sell the "Midnight Chinese" figures here or post links to auctions for them

Don't know about the archives though. I've posted pictures on the board of those from my collection

They haven't appeared in mass on ebay like midnight chinese. So its origins are less shady.

I'm sure they saw the same production numbers as some of the so called midnight chinese. Neither hasbro, nor anyone else running molds would produce a small run of figures. You just dont make up new molds with paint applications, run off a few figures and change your mind. Its just too expensive. If this figure was hand painted then i would buy that argument. But from the looks of it, it seems to be factory/mold paint apps.

-saboteur

They haven't appeared in mass on ebay like midnight chinese. So its origins are less shady.


This is something that has bothered me for some time, but I've been told to keep my opinions to myself on matters like these.

I can tell you though, they were released at the same time as the rest of the midnight run figures and they were sold by the same person. Personally I consider it another midnight run figure. Yes, not as many were sold, but it was at the same time, by the same person, so they are just as shady as the rest of them.

As for selling, it depends on how to advertise the figures... I've seen a couple be sold here "under the radar" being called prototypes and such...

Personally I wish we could just buy/trade/sell them here. They are figures hasbro has no plans of ever making and were about four years removed from them and they no longer are showing up on ebay on a weekly basis. So its rather old news.

Tanner

Actually the TF Steel Brigade figure is hand painted (his pants). He was available on ebay at the same time as the others but to my knowlede less than 10 were sold in total. There were rumors about him showing up as a mail in but Hasbro has never confirmed that. Still a very unique figure.

the boots or straps may be handpainted, but the gi joe logo would have to be stamped. Plus, the whole upper body probably wouldnt be handpainted. I dont quite know but looking through the updated preproduction archives it looks as if MANY midnight chinese are now being recognized. Interesting.

-saboteur

The whole "shadiness" of the Asian Preproduction figures is total garbage perpetuated by Hasbro's damage control regarding a slew of liability and financial issues, many of which stem from them just being angry the items were "escaping" the factory, coupled with some falsely high-minded members of the community that like to toe the Hasbro line and condemn them because they were stolen or trash-picked. They are just about ALL easily explainable as unreleased paint schemes, cancelled figures, or just plain mistakes. Many repesent different colors of plastic, missing or additonal paint apps that were used later, incorrectly shot colors, or vendor exclusives that didn't see the light of day. Even if Hasbro doesn't endorse them, they were made in hasbro-licensed factories, using Hasbro molds, and at one point or another, with some direction (or lack of) by Hasbro employees. There is a ton of evidence of items like this from the vintage era as well, but far less due to the lack of an available market at the time (the internet is just too enticing, and there wasn't much of a collectors market back then) and less international access and stricter control of the factories that supplied the product.

YoJoe's dismissal of them was mainly a nod to Hasbro, who was much more interested in maintaining the integrity of forthcoming products, and halting the sale of items they deemed "pirated" to prevent potentional profit loss and liabilities, than in the actual existence of the products, information pertaining to them, or the sale of them among collectors once they were out. They wanted to plug the leak, not arrest the buyers. Yojoe was, at some point, asked to condemn the sales on the boards and kill links to the auctions while hasbro did whatever investigations and used methods to eventually curb the theft from factories. Early attempts resulted in disappearing Ebay IDs, short terms of silence online from asian sellers, and reports out of asia of people actually being arrested. Another method hasbro used was the marking of prototype and preproduction items in black, HFE (hasbro far east) and HM (not sure what that meant...). These marks were supposedly meant to help them see just where the items were leaking out of the factories. Have you noticed how small the number of prototypes for Sigma 6 and the 25th have shown up in the last few years? They were obviousy at least somewhat successful.

Now, most of us on the staff agreed that we preferred information about these items be available rather than not, but for a long time, nothing was said or done about cataloging them. There are several collectors who have been at work on it, and YoJoe has added higher profile unreleased or preproduction pieces to the archive, like the Steel Brigade. It was NEVER meant to be Tiger force, that was the name given by the Asian seller that brought most of them to the market. It was meant to be our mail away figure from master collector, but due to some sort of administrative changes at hasbro around that time, we got the Storm Shadow unmasked figure instead. I have had that confirmed from several sources on 2 continents. That figure is a mix of old paint masks (I think it was wreckage and the con firefly), stamps (that logo was used on quite a few modern figures), and a new head sculpt that the money was put into, and then never used.

I have never liked or agreed with the term "midnight Chinese" because it casts an extremely negative light on some pretty cool pieces of joe history. There are few to none that cannot be explained in some way as valid pre-production or unreleased items. But once a term catches on, regardless of the connotation, it stays (mickey mose cobra commander, pimp daddy destro, party scarlett, etc).

Now the unpainted "test shots" that surfaced in quantity also fall under the hasbro piracy and liability banner, because there is some hasbro rule about a dozen test shots per mold, or something, with any extra to be destroyed or recycled. So, the abundant supply of test shots more than likely points to over-running and theft, and helps validate many of Hasbro's claims considering newer sculpt items may not have gone through final safety testing (I have several items that were changed prior to released for failure in some testing). However, the painted pieces, while probably just as "stolen", are valid unused, cancelled or preproduction items, not the product of sinister midnight chinese Factory workers that the nickname implies.

nice post...


so then are test shots allowed for sale here??

everything just seems REALLY ambiguous.

-saboteur

There hasn't been any further clarification that I can remember regarding sales, it generally needs to be all or nothing due to the potential for board meltdown over any given issue at any given time. Generally most of the collectors that exchange in the preproduction and test shot figures don't hang out on YoJoe. While at this point, it might not be a big deal to sell or trade the Asian VSPs, it probably would not be the best place due to a lack of interested and informed parties.

It is AO's or Terry's call, but with the addition of a lot of modern test shots and pre-production figures to the archive, I'd like to see them traded more freely.

Kevin,

Thank you for coming forward with the willingness to discuss all this. It explains a lot and clears up an awful lot of questions I've had on these figures.

Tanner

the boots or straps may be hand painted, but the gi joe logo would have to be stamped. Plus, the whole upper body probably wouldn't be hand painted. I don't quite know but looking through the updated preproduction archives it looks as if MANY midnight Chinese are now being recognized. Interesting.

-saboteur

I owned that figure before I sold it to Drew. The entire figure, with the exception of the black plastic arms and torso and the G.I.Joe logo, are hand painted.

The head sculpt is entirely new and can be found as the helmets on the Anit-Venom task force.

It is not some bootleg, made late at night in a factory.

I have spoken with people in the factory and know that it is very VERY improbable for there to be some special late night run of figures. A minimum run, just to be able to turn on the machines, is around 250-500 (depending on factory policy).

I can confirm that everything that Kevin has said is 100% factually true and accurate.

As for our policy regarding the sale of these items, until I hear from Hasbro that people are authorized to sell these figures publicly then we have to officially state that we do not allow their sale on YoJoe. As for what people do in private, we have no control or say in the matter. But we WILL archive these figures with accurate, proven information, and not subjective opinion or speculation - you have my word on that.

I think so of you might be under estimating the amount of pressure and anger that was coming out of certain camps in Hasbro about these figures. One of the biggest sources of this pressure still works there.

Oh, I got to see it in person....I pulled a nice bagged set of Cobra Island infiltrator test shots out at the 2004 con, and showed it to one Hasbro guy when he told me it was never produced...kind of like "well, what's this then?" The look i got would have melted concrete, it was hard not to laugh.

after that I learned to be a little more diplomatic :).

I think Hasbro did do something different with their factories that they use because there is dramatically less items like this on eBay for both the Joe and SW lines. You still see some new Transformers stuff listed though.

Kevin, I always wondered what Hasbro thought of you at the Orlando show with all that stuff you had at your booth. You had a mountain of the stuff. That is when the pressure from Hasbro was at its highest.

hmmmm..... a PLASTIC production piece which has been hand painted....... Thats interesting because i was told that these had no place in the production line of a figure. That the production of a figure went basically from painted resin copy, to unpainted test shot, to mold/stencil/factory painted production figure. I was told this in reference to a very high profile figure of mine and in others' collections which was publically denounced as illegitimate. Sorry, but i had to bring that up. I just thought that hand painted plastic figures had no place in the production process.

Any clarification on this issue would be greatly appreciated!

thanks!

-saboteur

I think Hasbro did do something different with their factories that they use because there is dramatically less items like this on eBay for both the Joe and SW lines. You still see some new Transformers stuff listed though.

They use different factories for sure, and sometimes we can see it in the actual figures...the Cobra Infantry pack HAD to be made in some different factory from other 6 packs...the plastic is different, the rivets seem different, and the logos are MOST telling, they look to be applied with 2 paint apps, first the red, then the black linework over it. Nothing that I can remember was done that way before or since.


Kevin, I always wondered what Hasbro thought of you at the Orlando show with all that stuff you had at your booth. You had a mountain of the stuff. That is when the pressure from Hasbro was at its highest.

I was really worried at the time, as well. I had spoken with one or two of the bigger Hasbro guys that were at that con, so I went right up and asked them if i had to worry about it. One of them came to my booth and was actually pretty surprised at some of the series and pieces I had been able to get ahold of. He actually helped me out with some info, including where the Night Force Tracker went, and why we got Action Man, and why some of the modern pieces had running changes made. The idea of "shutting me down" seemed to be much more of a joke, and made me feel like maybe I made way too big a deal out of it at the time.

Since then, as hyped up as Hasbro gets about some things and how quickly any action they take makes it around the internet, there are some things they really seem to not care about, even with their recent "Custom figure guidelines" email announcement. there is a seller on ebay that regularly sells Art prints of some comic and cartoon images. At the last con, a prominent joe collector had a booth FULL of reproduction box art as framed prints, unlicensed jewelry, and some polish bootlegs. He was right next to the hasbro booth. It probably helped that his stuff was incredibly cool and well made, (and he had a willingness to grease the wheels) but hasbro didn't even seem to take notice. When asked, they said "We're normally more concerned with people sueing US." When I bring test Shots and art to the con, the LAST thing I am worried about is Hasbro.

Kevin,

What was the deal with Tracker becoming Action Man?

Tanner

I found this thread from two years ago:

http://forums.yojoe.com/showthread.php?p=228649#post228649

Might add a little to the discussion.

Tanner

could someone please adress the fact that a plastic, hand painted figure (steel brigade tiger force) is being considered a preprod piece.

thanks,

-saboteur

If the figure part is already in production at some level, then it's cheaper to use an existing piece rather than mold an entirely new one. One need look no further than this pic:

http://yojoe.com/archive/preprod/98/vypra.shtml

The chipping paint at the swivel-arm battle grip belies the red plastic underneath. Simply put, this is a hand painted 87 Jinx figure used to show how Vypra would look. Hasbro then took this figure and used it in the box pic.

thats a cool pic!! I understand that that would make sense...but in this case the head IS a new mold. The reason i ask is because i was told by some people here that plastic handpainted figures just werent used in photoshoots...they are ALL handpainted resin hardcopies. Obviously that jinx, as well as the tf steel brigade puts a gaping hole in this logic.

-saboteur

What is there to address?

It was a pre-production figure, about a dozen (I recall exactly 13 sales) were available on the secondary market, and ultimately the figure was cancelled.

To me it is in the same category as the light blue armored Robot Rebellion/Rise of the BATs Cobra Commander.

I just think that the site should have a more clear cut definition of midnight chinese if people are going to subjectively choose what and what can not be sold, especially where there is so much ambiguity involved.

As to what is there to address? This figure, along with others, gives valuable insight into the production process and should be looked at in different lights imo.

thats all. as far as number of sales goes...that doesnt really shed much light on the figure's status of authenticity. Just because 13 were sold, certainly doesnt mean 13 were made.

:) saboteur

I just think that the site should have a more clear cut definition of midnight chinese if people are going to subjectively choose what and what can not be sold, especially where there is so much ambiguity involved.

Unfortunately, that's not our call to make. It's Hasbro's.

So what is hasbro's definition then? It seems that the steel brigade fits the criteria applied to outlawed midchinese figs.

-saboteur

Y'know, I think that's about enough as to what is and is not allowed to be sold. The definition is loose because Hasbro was not specific.

And I am very _VERY_ tired of the term "Midnight Chinese" and if I could ban that term all together, I would. These canceled, testshot and quality control sample figures are just that. Using the derogatory term Midnight Chinese implies a very factually inaccurately connotation to the origins of these figures.

Saboteur, the situation is what it is - and that's it. I do not know how we can be more clear about this. And yes, the SB figure DOES meet said criteria and occurred before the public was aware of Hasbro's position, I admit its sale and take responsibility.

Terry,

If you'd like us to use something other than Midnight Chinese to label these figures when discussing them, I have no problem with that. But in order to move away from the name, we should then all agree on a new name so that the new name catches on quicker as more of us will be using it almost immediately.

I'm not very good these things as I'm not a very creative person, but how about:

02/04 CaT QC Figures

Meaning 2002 - 2004 Canceled/Testshot Quality Control Figures...

Does anyone have anything better we can call them?

Tanner

Tanner, how about we call them what we used to before all of the drama - Test-Shots for plastic injection molded figures, and Prototypes for resin and pre-injection mold manufacturing?

Red Claw,

Can I submit pictures of the blue anti venom task force figure for the archives? This way people know the exist.

Tanner, how about we call them what we used to before all of the drama - Test-Shots for plastic injection molded figures, and Prototypes for resin and pre-injection mold manufacturing?

Gez Terry if you want to go that route we might as well stop with all creativity and ditch the following:

Pimp Daddy Destro and Party Scarlett...

The whole point of this was to come up with another name people would latch onto and actually use in place of Midnight Chinese Run.

I guess I'll just go back to the ole status quo...

Tanner

Red Claw,

Can I submit pictures of the blue anti venom task force figure for the archives? This way people know the exist.
You can email them to submissions@yojoe.com.

Not to try and derail this thread, but what exactly is a "Party Scarlet"? I'd never heard that term before this thread and can't find anything on searches... The PDD and TF Steel Brigade and stuff, I've seen, but I've just never heard of "Party Scarlett" before. :confused:

As for the "Midnight Chinese" moniker, I don't personally see it as derogatory, but ignorant. For the longest time, that's what a lot of people's understanding of the figures was (including myself), and probably still is. I think that threads/sub-forums like this will go a long way to remove the stank from the term, if not change it altogether.

Not to try and derail this thread, but what exactly is a "Party Scarlet"? I'd never heard that term before this thread and can't find anything on searches...

If I am thinking of correct figure, there is also a much less flattering name for it - "Strip Tease" Scarlett (keeping in the theme of PDD) or even Cutie Honey Scarlett since it looks a bit like the Cutie Honey anime character.


It is basically this figure:
http://www.yojoe.com/action/04/images/scarlett6_large.jpg

With the tan/yellow stripe on the uniform in the middle of the chest painted flesh color.

I have one but I don't have it handy to take a picture of.

I dont think its ignorant at all. I know for a fact that some of the stuff made was not hasbro preproduction, but made specifically for resale to collectors on the secondary market. I have seen it first hand.

"Midnight chinese" is very accurate in describing SOME gi joe products. I am not saying most, or all, obviously, and i certainly have no idea about the tf steel brigade.

All i'm saying about the tf steel brigade is that it is a very interestingly made figure, in that it has NEW molds incorporated into it, it is plastic, not resin, and has both facory and hand paint. I'm not drawing any conclusions or trying to do anything. Thats all. Just trying to better understand the production process if in fact it is a hasbro preproduction piece (which again, i'm not doubting).

Party scarlett, btw, is the scarlett with flesh tone paint painted down the center of her torso.

edit: oops...dockingbay beat me to it :)

-saboteur

I dont think its ignorant at all. I know for a fact that some of the stuff made was not hasbro preproduction, but made specifically for resale to collectors on the secondary market. I have seen it first hand.

"Midnight chinese" is very accurate in describing SOME gi joe products. I am not saying most, or all, obviously, and i certainly have no idea about the tf steel brigade.

-saboteur

For someone who mentions having no idea, your first statement sounds pretty "informed", I'd like to toss a few follow-up questions at you...

How long did you spend in the orient with these infamous Hasbro-Pirating Nocturnal Asian Toy bootleggers?

Since you have seen it first hand, and what are your facts regarding their creation specifically to be sold to the American GI Joe Buying Ebay market? (all....2 dozen or so of us at the time...)

I think you'll need to furnish a list of these SOME GI Joe products you're casting doubt on, after all, you're using ambiguous terms like SOME, but not saying MOST, or ALL, even though you have no idea about one in particular...

Where did you stay when you were in Hong Kong during your first-hand knowledge aquisition of all this?

How is the food in Asia, pretty good?

Where did you stay? An awful lot of the fatories over there, especially the Hasbro factories have really, really tight security pertaining to non-employees or non-clients, how did you get in? To get your first hand knowledge of these midnight Chinese bootlegs that were manufactured for the American GI joe Buying Ebay market?

I am CURIOUS.

thats a cool pic!! I understand that that would make sense...but in this case the head IS a new mold. The reason i ask is because i was told by some people here that plastic handpainted figures just werent used in photoshoots...they are ALL handpainted resin hardcopies. Obviously that jinx, as well as the tf steel brigade puts a gaping hole in this logic.

-saboteur

I'm not sure if you're referring to the conversation we had on TNI about that Cobra Soldier of yours but if you are and this is how you understand things, then i think you might have missed most of the points made (and i mean no offense but it's not the first time you've misquoted/misunderstood me either).

To be absolutely clear, there are most certainly plastic first shot figures that are handpainted out there. They have many uses, including being used as photo samples. More often than not the items used in photo shoots were resin hardcopies, but not always. Some were just plain production figures as well.

The thing you have to understand about the pre-production process (or indeed any of Hasbro's internal workings) is that there is no black and white, by-the-book process used. It's not something you can say definitively what was and what was not employed. There is a general set of rules you can follow, but you also have to use your experience to judge each piece you find on a case by case basis (which i did when looking at your figure).

If I am thinking of correct figure, there is also a much less flattering name for it - "Strip Tease" Scarlett (keeping in the theme of PDD) or even Cutie Honey Scarlett since it looks a bit like the Cutie Honey anime character.


It is basically this figure:
*snip*

With the tan/yellow stripe on the uniform in the middle of the chest painted flesh color.

I have one but I don't have it handy to take a picture of.

Thanks, Nick!

thanks for the sarcasm! as a mod you're really setting a good example for the rest of the posters.

as far as my seeing it first hand...the internet is a beautiful place. It makes trips to china unnecessary in the modern age. Thats all i'm saying...you can believe me or you're certainly entitled to not believe me.

there have been some figures that were used in the preproduction process for hasbro and sold on ebay...and there are some items that have been sold where hasbro was never aware of their creation. I think the name "midnight chinese" is quite fitting to these latter items...be as it may that the whole story about them being made at night after the factories closed down arent necessarily true.

-saboteur

thanks for the sarcasm! as a mod you're really setting a good example for the rest of the posters. -saboteur


Mainly directed at the posters making false claims about their intimate knowledge of Hasbro, their factories, and Asian cuisine, then refusing to back it up with anything concrete.


as far as my seeing it first hand...the internet is a beautiful place. It makes trips to china unnecessary in the modern age. Thats all i'm saying... -saboteur

You know, for someone begging for clarification and information in previous posts in this thread and on this forum, you certainly clam up quickly when asked about your own intimate knowledge of the process and products. "That's all I'm saying...But can you please answer my other questions so i can tell you how much more I won't say?" I guess there is some new virtual reality program i am not aware of? One that eliminates the need for travel? I bet the tourism industry will be taking a MASSIVE hit.


there have been some figures that were used in the preproduction process for hasbro and sold on ebay...and there are some items that have been sold where hasbro was never aware of their creation.

You've spoken with Hasbro!!!!?

OK, NOW you have my respect...After all, speaking to every possible Hasbro R+D employee and specifically GI Joe team member for the last 6 or 8 years must to interview them about what they knew or didn't know about the existence of SPECIFIC FIGURES that showed up on Ebay out of Asia must have been incredibly time consuming, and shows a dedication to the cause that few, myself included, are not prepared to show...BRAVO. Especially considering how little they are really allowed to talk about what happens in the building...I mean, heck, I know very little in comparison, and I had to sign a non discosure agreement to even talk with them at all. Did you go to Rhode Island in person, or just "internet" yourself there to talk to them? I hear it is a "beautiful" thing.


you can believe me or you're certainly entitled to not believe me.

Thanks, while in previous rampant threads on other forums, I may have gone either way on the subject, from here on in, I'll definitely opt for the LATTER of the two.

Okay, this is an admin job I guess...so, bad children, bad. No desert tonight.

There, now you all go look at your slap on the wrists and think about what you've said.

Asian cuisine?? what haha. man, dont attack me...too many good threads get locked down, and i'm trying to not be hostile towards anyone.

As to "begging clarification and information" I admit, my initial post was a bit tongue in cheek as to "midnight chinese vs. preprod" I WAS, however, looking for clarification on what the board officially thought the definition of midnight chinese entailed. I now understand that its a bit of a touchy topic and that the decision will be subjective without a set of guidelines. fine. cool. i didnt know before. now i know...and knowing is hal...nevermind. end of discussion on board policy.

As to the "you spoke to hasbro!" comment:
nope, never spoke with hasbro. You're right, i'm not aware of any of the repaints we've seen on ebay and other places even having ever been linked to hasbro. I was merely presuming that at least SOME of the things we've seen have been hasbro canceled products. But then again, you could speak with some of the other members who have spoken with hasbro about this topic. Maybe they have some insight as to some repainted figures that were indeed cancelled hasbro figures.

Then people started saying simply that midnight chinese joe products basically didnt exist. And I was clarifying that they DO indeed exist....while I know of a few things that have been made this way, I am not aware of all obviously, and cannot clearly differentiate between hasbro preproduction, and bootleg "midnight chinese"(for lack of a better word) besides the few things that I KNOW to be made without hasbro's knowledge. In fact, since the quality is basically the same, nobody really can.

Looking into figures such as the tf steel brigade, which enough evidence suggests was (from what i am hearing) a hasbro canceled mail away...to me, gives a little insight into the production process.

-saboteur

edit: what does this mean?
"Thanks, while in previous rampant threads on other forums, I may have gone either way on the subject, from here on in, I'll definitely opt for the LATTER of the two."

You know, I have always thought that "Midnight Chinese" was kind of a tongue twister. I feel that "02/04 CaT QC Figures" is much easier to say and I like it. Lets start using that for now on. Just my two cents.
Love,
Chris

You know, I have always thought that "Midnight Chinese" was kind of a tongue twister. I feel that "02/04 CaT QC Figures" is much easier to say and I like it. Lets start using that for now on. Just my two cents.
Love,
Chris


^^ hahahahahha

-saboteur

How about calling them "Vendor Samples?" That is the term for them I am going to try to get to catch on.

Dan

How about calling them "Vendor Samples?" That is the term for them I am going to try to get to catch on.

Dan

Dan my only concern with something like that is, its fairly generic. If I'm looking specifically for those types, it'd be nice to have a phrase that specifically speaks to those figures from '02 - '04. By using the phrase vendor samples, you could mean anything from the line from '82 - present.

Tanner

Seriously

Who Cares


We all call them Midnight Chinese and thats how its going to remain, Noone is going to tell us otherwise

"Vendor Samples" works for me. you'll never hear me call the the other thing again.

lets call them

Midnight 02/04 CaT QC bootleg vendor chinese samples, or m02/04ctQbvcs for short... just a suggestion ;)

I kinda like the term Midnight Chinese too. I know it implies certain things that are not true but it is catchy :)

As the old saying goes...."whats in a name...?"

-saboteur