Hi, I was wondering if anyone has experience with afa loose Joes? Specifically, what level of fig quality is associated with the 3 main grades of 90,85,80? When purchasing, what could I expect at each of these levels?

Hi, I was wondering if anyone has experience with afa loose Joes? Specifically, what level of fig quality is associated with the 3 main grades of 90,85,80? When purchasing, what could I expect at each of these levels?

All I know is I got one to check it out, I think it was an 85. It had a big friggin' elbow crack.

That's the kind of thing I'm afraid of. It seems like all the grades form a bell curve with the majority getting an 85. I wonder how much quality variation can be found at that 85 grade level...?

I don't want to start a war here, but it since you asked:

Lack of consistency seems to be a problem with AFA.....you can't tell what you're going to get when you buy a 90 vs an 85 graded item. Stories abound of people getting items graded, opening them, and resubmitting them and getting a different grade the second time around.

There have also been several high profile cases where counterfeit items were graded by AFA. Re-sealed cards have been graded as MOC items, loose items with incorrect accessories have been graded, and the list goes on.

All of these things have kept me from ever buying an AFA graded item. I know there are people out there who like their product, and I certainly don't want to imply that they're wrong in any way for liking AFA....to each his own and everyone has their own comfort level.

Thanks for the info. I have read about some of the criticisms. On average, how much wear will demote a figure to 85, and how much more will get it downgraded to an 80? Anyone have a lot of experience?

I wouldn't bother with AFA'd loose figures. It's cheaper to buy non-AFA'd loose figures, even ones that are near mint or mint. What's the point of even buying loose figures if not to pose and display them?

Here is AFA's stated grading criteria:

The AFA Gold level consists of the grades 100, 95, and 90. The select few figures that receive these grades are among the highest quality in existence. The flaws are very minor, very subtle, and are sometimes very hard to identify with the naked eye.

A figure graded an 85 will often be referred to as 'case fresh' and should be very close to gold level condition. The term 'case fresh' is certainly justifiable as the average figure pulled from a sealed case will grade an 85 due to small flaws which occur when the figures are packaged or shipped in the case.

The average figure pulled from a store shelf is usually an 80, which represents a nice specimen with minor flaws apparent upon close inspection. An item grading 75 does have significant wear but does not have major flaws which would draw the eye to them at first glance.

For most high grade collectors, an 85 is satisfactory. For most discriminating collectors, an 80 is satisfactory. A 75 will be satisfactory to those who are not overly concerned with light stresses, small bubble imperfections, and other flaws which do not jump out at first glance.

There have also been several high profile cases where counterfeit items were graded by AFA. Re-sealed cards have been graded as MOC items, loose items with incorrect accessories have been graded, and the list goes on.

Ok, I personally am not a fan of grading items, so I am not bashing Dan here. I would like to see actual examples of these claims. I have heard this before, but I cannot remember seeing any of these for my self.
Chris

Ok, I personally am not a fan of grading items, so I am not bashing Dan here. I would like to see actual examples of these claims. I have heard this before, but I cannot remember seeing any of these for my self.
Chris

No problem, Chris. After all, if I bring up allegations like that, I should be prepared to back them up.....I also don't want people to think I'm just bashing AFA - I think all of my points are valid criticism.

Probably the highest profile AFA error was a few years back when they graded a vinyl caped Jawa that turned out to be a fake. IIRC, the cape was a repro and the card had been re-sealed. In the interest of full disclosure, I can't find a source for this one - but I've been told be several people about it so I don't doubt it.

According the Transformers wiki, AFA has had plenty of problems with the TF line. AFA frequently grades 1990s Chinese G1 Transformers as the original 1980s versions. They have mistakenly graded knockoff Beachcombers as originals and once graded a resealed Masterforce Browning (with stickers applied). The most famous case dealing with AFA and Transformers might be the fake Ratbat that got an AFA 80 though....the Ebayer who bought that one wasn't happy at all.....

AFA has graded a loose red snaggletooth with a Stormtrooper blaster (he came with a Han Solo blaster). There was also a famous story where someone purposely did a reseal on a Star Wars figure, sent it to AFA with explicit instructions to check for tampering, and got the figure back graded with no problems detected by AFA. It was done specifically as a test of their ability to detect reseals, and they failed miserably. Bill Cable details the story on his blog.

Thanks for the info. I have read about some of the criticisms. On average, how much wear will demote a figure to 85, and how much more will get it downgraded to an 80? Anyone have a lot of experience?
I actually buy AFA graded Joes, so I can speak for their services.

I can't tell you their exact criteria for each grade, as only AFA graders know this information, but the grades are determined by the total wear on the figure.

My personal opinion is that a loose Uncirculated AFA Joe would be the best quality figure to buy. These figures come straight from the package and have minimal/if any wear.

I actually buy AFA graded Joes, so I can speak for their services.

I can't tell you their exact criteria for each grade, as only AFA graders know this information, but the grades are determined by the total wear on the figure.

My personal opinion is that a loose Uncirculated AFA Joe would be the best quality figure to buy. These figures come straight from the package and have minimal/if any wear.

Thanks for the info. As I try to collect only mint or nm loose joes, I'm thinking I need to avoid anything less than an 85. Would you agree?

Thanks for the info. As I try to collect only mint or nm loose joes, I'm thinking I need to avoid anything less than an 85. Would you agree?
Yes, I would only buy AFA 85s or 90s.

Yeah, you can't go wrong with an 85.

I'd avoid the cases that have the blocky chunks of acrylic holding the figures in place. I've seen them with, and without, and IMHO they look a lot better without the chunks on their heads, arms, and legs.

Yeah, you can't go wrong with an 85.

I'd avoid the cases that have the blocky chunks of acrylic holding the figures in place. I've seen them with, and without, and IMHO they look a lot better without the chunks on their heads, arms, and legs.

Are the blocky chunk an older or newer afa casing technique? I've seen a lot of looses figures cased in a variety of ways.

Are the blocky chunk an older or newer afa casing technique? I've seen a lot of looses figures cased in a variety of ways.

I have no idea which came first or what they still do, or how they decide. I don't know if tightness or ability to stand up plays a role in it, or if the accessories play a role in how big the case has to be making blocks necessary...

my info is probobly old but if i recall wasnt afa grading loose figures as complete with accessory pack weapons? and i seem to recal an instance with a wonder bread heman graded complete with some sword and axe that he didnt come with originaly. and if i recal afa replied with the accessories dont have to be the exact to qualify as complete.
now this was a year or two ago but ever since then i personaly have stayed away from loose afa. i personaly like the carded ones and one day plan to own a couple of my favorite joes carded afa but i cant bring myself to buy loose afa yet till i personaly see some consistancy.
anyhow thats my thoughts.

btw i seem to recal a video on youtube of someone opening a starwars figure, resealing it, sending it and it returned as moc. but i did hear afa contacted this guy to ask how he did it so they could correct themselves n the future. in that case there i think it shows afa is at least trying to get better.

AFA grading is an absolute joke. Anyone who puts any faith in their grading is nuts. My friend had 2 carded figures and 2 loose figures graded by 4 other services before AFA and they were all pretty consistant. When he got them back they were all messed up. A loose figure graded complete was missing the weapon and a carded figure that was completely flawless by the other 4's standards was given an 80, which is crazy.

AFA grading is an absolute joke. Anyone who puts any faith in their grading is nuts. My friend had 2 carded figures and 2 loose figures graded by 4 other services before AFA and they were all pretty consistant. When he got them back they were all messed up. A loose figure graded complete was missing the weapon and a carded figure that was completely flawless by the other 4's standards was given an 80, which is crazy.

What other grading services are there? You mention four, please explain. So your friend sent the same MOC figure to four different places, then had it sent to AFA which got a lower grade than the others? Your friend must have spent a fortune having one figure graded by five different grading services, to prove what point, or get what out of it. Admit it, you are making this story up!!

I shouldn't have used the word service to describr it persay. They are comic/collectable shops that provide a grading service. There's a place in Toronto, one in St Catharines, one in London, I'm not sure where the other one is. My friend buys larger collections breaks them down and resells what he doesn't keep. After selling AFA graded figures and having two different people in two different cities come back because figures were graded graded incorrectly. One had accessory pack backpack other was grade 85 but was 70-75. It seems like they don't follow the same grading practices accross the board. They should be going through a checklist and taking off the same amount for a certain defect not what one grader feels like.

What other grading services are there?

Collector's Source Grading. All of their cases are UV, and they grade on double the criteria that AFA does and then average those grades. Seems a step in the right direction. Really, a carded Joe should be graded like CGC grades comics- with a rosetta, or certain criteria for each grade. That would help consistency.