*Disclaimer I know there is a forum channel for AFA stuff, but I would like the opinion of vintage GI Joe collectors. Thanks*


Hi, I have been a GI Joe fan most of my life, but I have just started my collection. In my youth I owned some of the best GI Joe items, Tomahawk, Night Raven, and the one that pains me every time I look on ebay...the USS Flagg. However, I have just started collecting. My collection is pathetic by comparison, but I know everyone has to start somewhere. I have been using yojoe.com and reading the forums for a few months now and there is one question I would love to have everyone's opinion on.

Why are AFA graded items frowned upon by so many GI Joe collectors?

I enjoy both mint/loose/complete and misb items. I also know the price difference went buying loose items and boxed items. I think I would rather have an AFA graded misb item than an ungraded one. If I am going to spend so much money I want to know the misb item is legit. I know there are people that absolutely hate AFA items, but in the modern climate of fraudulent collectible sellers I don't see the "evil" that AFA causes. I read the forums and there are countless threads asking questions on how to tell if things have been tampered with to falsely increase the value. So, with a popular topic being fraud spotting, why is AFA frowned upon by many?

*Disclaimer I know there is a forum channel for AFA stuff, but I would like the opinion of vintage GI Joe collectors. Thanks*


Hi, I have been a GI Joe fan most of my life, but I have just started my collection. In my youth I owned some of the best GI Joe items, Tomahawk, Night Raven, and the one that pains me every time I look on ebay...the USS Flagg. However, I have just started collecting. My collection is pathetic by comparison, but I know everyone has to start somewhere. I have been using yojoe.com and reading the forums for a few months now and there is one question I would love to have everyone's opinion on.

Why are AFA graded items frowned upon by so many GI Joe collectors?

I enjoy both mint/loose/complete and misb items. I also know the price difference went buying loose items and boxed items. I think I would rather have an AFA graded misb item than an ungraded one. If I am going to spend so much money I want to know the misb item is legit. I know there are people that absolutely hate AFA items, but in the modern climate of fraudulent collectible sellers I don't see the "evil" that AFA causes. I read the forums and there are countless threads asking questions on how to tell if things have been tampered with to falsely increase the value. So, with a popular topic being fraud spotting, why is AFA frowned upon by many?Moved.

That's a good question. I wonder why collector's hate so much on AFA also. I mean, I don't collect loose Joes, but I don't hate on those that do.

Some collectors hate because they don't like the idea of another person telling them the condition of their items. How dare an independent 3rd party grade their items.

Some collectors have never used AFA's services, but can tell you every "horror" story or every "mistake" that AFA has made. At least AFA takes responsibility for their mistakes, and will buy the items back.

I like the idea of AFA using techniques to very that items are real. Before buying AFA graded toys, I was at the mercy of the sellers description when buying. I bought so many items that didn't look anything like the picture or description. At least when I buy an AFA 80/85, I know what condition to expect.

I support AFA and their services. I don't buy my Joes to resell them(although there's nothing wrong with that), but if I do ever resell them, I hope that because they are AFA graded, I'll get the most I can for them.

Good luck with your AFA collection if you start one. If you ever need any help/advice regarding AFA, feel free to contact me.

AFA is great but i drew the line when i saw afa graded star wars underware lol

AFA is great but i draw the line when i saw afa graded star wars underware lol:eek: Seriously!

Linky? :D

Moved.

That's a good question. I wonder why collector's hate so much on AFA also. I mean, I don't collect loose Joes, but I don't hate on those that do.

Some collectors hate because they don't like the idea of another person telling them the condition of their items. How dare an independent 3rd party grade their items.

Some collectors have never used AFA's services, but can tell you every "horror" story or every "mistake" that AFA has made. At least AFA takes responsibility for their mistakes, and will buy the items back.

I like the idea of AFA using techniques to very that items are real. Before buying AFA graded toys, I was at the mercy of the sellers description when buying. I bought so many items that didn't look anything like the picture or description. At least when I buy an AFA 80/85, I know what condition to expect.

I support AFA and their services. I don't buy my Joes to resell them(although there's nothing wrong with that), but if I do ever resell them, I hope that because they are AFA graded, I'll get the most I can for them.

Good luck with your AFA collection if you start one. If you ever need any help/advice regarding AFA, feel free to contact me.

I don't do AFA but I thought this was a good topic close to my heart. The simple answer IMO is haters are going to hate no matter who you are, where you are, or what you collect. You just gotta be above them and not worry to much about what other people think. I have tattoos all over my body some people love them, some people HATE them and, they are not afraid to voice it. Some people ask if I have been to prison. Others just gawk disgusted. I have had them long enough to let that slip right by me though. They get so mad when I just laugh and keep walking. I DO make it a point to embrace it tightly when someone does like them. It's like my dad always says, among other funny things: Opinions are like a-holes everybody's got one...

Why are AFA graded items frowned upon by so many GI Joe collectors?

I enjoy both mint/loose/complete and misb items. I also know the price difference went buying loose items and boxed items. I think I would rather have an AFA graded misb item than an ungraded one. If I am going to spend so much money I want to know the misb item is legit. I know there are people that absolutely hate AFA items, but in the modern climate of fraudulent collectible sellers I don't see the "evil" that AFA causes. I read the forums and there are countless threads asking questions on how to tell if things have been tampered with to falsely increase the value. So, with a popular topic being fraud spotting, why is AFA frowned upon by many?

The most basic answer can be put into a form of a question. Why is something more valuable to YOU just because of some other person's opinion of it? I don't think an outside agency can tell me what kind of condition my action figure is in any better than I can. So you are basically paying someone else for their opinion. They don't enhance the item in any way, they just give an opinion and an pretty little sticker with it and they profit off of it. Then re-sellers push their AFA stuff at much higher prices as if getting that little sticker somehow increases the rareness or condition of the item. It is no more rare or in any better condition pre-AFA than it is post-AFA.

So IMO, AFA only makes sense for collectors who don't have the ability to judge condition on their own.

Going even further, pushing the OPINION variable a little more...there are all of those legitimate stories of people sending in an item and not liking the grade they got, then they resend the item and it somehow miraculously gets a better grade. WTF? Same item, graded by the same organization twice and getting different grades? Once again, AFA offers no actual service other than offering an opinion.

Paying someone for their opinion is just saying that you don't value your own opinion.




"If I am going to spend so much money I want to know the misb item is legit."

You know how I know my MISB items are legit? I look at them and decide for myself. AFA doesn't automatically make something legit. What's stopping me from removing the scotch tape from some of these new boxes, taking stuff out and putting other stuff back in the box and re-taping it? I could then send it to AFA and have it graded as MIB. They are just people just like you and me. If you can't tell something MIB is legit, then AFA can't either. They can't scan the contents if it's 'sealed'. I've even seen the completely wrong figure in the display window of a MISB vehicle and still get graded as MISB.

When you buy a collectable you uy it normally because you like it unless your a dealer. If it goes up in value all well and good I only collect loose stuff I admit I love to play with the joe stuff I have nothing in boxes at all everything is on shelves out of direct sunlight its up to yourself how you organise your collection you dont have to conform to anyone else
I often buy graded items from the states but there still taken out of the box and the box is digarded you only live once enjoy the collection how you want too.

Why are AFA graded items frowned upon by so many GI Joe collectors?


I know this has been hotly debated on several forums, including here in the past. But in real life I've never met a collector who actually frowns on AFA graded items. It's really just the cost of such items that gives them pause.

Personally I like the way the cases look but think there's a crucial design flaw - they are completely sealed which prevents air/heat circulation. In warmer climates this can be devastating. The temperature builds up such that it becomes like a mini oven and the contents react drastically.

* To a lesser degree the same thing happens with Starcases. But this is easily solved by drilling small holes in them.

Personally I like the way the cases look but think there's a crucial design flaw - they are completely sealed which prevents air/heat circulation. In warmer climates this can be devastating. The temperature builds up such that it becomes like a mini oven and the contents react drastically.



Are the older AFA cases completely sealed or something? According to AFA's faqs their cases have a slight opening in the back.

"Why is the AFA case sealed everywhere except the back?
The acrylic case is sealed on all sides except for a slight opening at the back of the case at the bottom. We do not seal this edge to allow for air circulation inside the case. If we did not allow for this air circulation, the case would be subject to a "Terrarium" effect. In other words, depending on the temperature, the inside of the case could start to sweat. The unsealed edge alleviates this possibility. The acrylic cases are still considered sealed and the contents cannot be tampered with without being broken open."

Do they still have problems?

Oh yeah sorry I forgot about that! Though it doesn't really help due to the poor location - it's in an area which is almost always blocked when you display the item.

Here is my take on the AFA phenomenon:

I used to collect baseball cards when I was a kid and into my teen years. My friends and I would trade for what we though was valuable to us. When Beckett the magazine came out it started to put a value on what they thought were the market value of cards. Each month we would buy the magazine and see what cards were declining or getting hot. This made trading very equitable for both sides because you could see what your cards were worth.

Then the grading system hit!! At first, only the very special cards were actually graded, like a Griffey UD Rookie or older rookie cards. Then everything seemed to need to be graded!! Since when was a 1990 Wade Boggs graded U90 worth more than a Tony Gwynn ungraded rookie card that to the eye is perfect? I had enough and stopped collecting when I could not afford the packs any longer.

How does this relate to AFA gi joe? I would say that to some having their items graded by a third party system insures they know the items condition in relation to any other like item having gone through the same grading system. But!! That by no means provides a real value to your item. For instance, I see some auctions which state "only 1 of 2 graded", so that gives a perception of rarity. Well what if everyone who has this item starts to send theirs in to be graded. Some of those items will fall into the above category and then your "1 of 2" will be "1 of 100" So the more AFA grades and collects your money, the lower your value for the item becomes!!

I saw a silver pad grand slam sell for over $3K this week, AFA graded. In my opinion, when buying AFA from ebay, you are buying at the top of the market always and will never have your items appreciate. I would rather rely on the old supply and demand theory, not have it manipulated for profit by a third party, then sell it as a way to preserve the value of your collectible. Or as a collector, would rather own all the gi joes from 1982-1994 loose and complete, rather than one AFA graded silver pad grand slam!!

The reserve for that Grand Slam was not met. I would have paid that amount due to its rarity and condition (I judge by the pics not what AFA grades), if I could afford it. And then I would have proceeded to break open the AFA case and open the MISB box... :)

In the current market values of most AFA graded items have started to drop pretty significantly. Anything 80 or below sells for roughly the same as non-graded pieces now.

The reserve for that Grand Slam was not met. I would have paid that amount due to its rarity and condition (I judge by the pics not what AFA grades), if I could afford it. And then I would have proceeded to break open the AFA case and open the MISB box... :)

In the current market values of most AFA graded items have started to drop pretty significantly. Anything 80 or below sells for roughly the same as non-graded pieces now.

Exactly, you judge by the pics not what AFA grades!! Just because AFA grades something a 90 does not mean you could not find one in better loose condition. Most collectors cannot afford the ultra high end AFA items either. A loose flagg complete is waaaaaaay better than one in a box, IMHO.

I am glad to hear that AFA items 80 or lower sell for what they do loose or ungraded. That is the way it should be. You should be able to pull an 80 quality figure right off a peg, if you collect the new stuff. And an older ARAH, AFA 80 quality should be a normal low mileage specimen found from most dealers and high quality lots. So this should prevent everyone from sending in every gi joe related item to be graded in hopes of flipping and making a profit. Including underwear!! Would AFA grade used underwear? What grade would they get? That would be money well spent. At least I would have the only "1 of 1" AFA grade 20 gi joe underwear in existence!!

I think one reason why AFA grading is hated on is because many of us here are experts (or we think we are) and take it personally when AFA does something incorrectly. The second reason is the rampant dealer abuse (like adding an extra zero to graded aftermarket prices) which has nothing to do with AFA's service.
Personally, I think you should only AFA grade if you're selling a rare piece. This ensures the buyer with no/limited knowledge that they're not getting a fake or something of lesser quality/condition. They can even look up AFA's database for further levels of assurance. Again, this service does not seem necessary to seasoned collectors who are keeping their stuff forever.

:eek: Seriously!

Linky? :D

YES it is very crazy the things that get AFAed.

http://www.hisstank.com/forum/g-i-joe-toys-modern-general-discussion/48364-you-real-what-next-afa-tooth-brush.html

this was a link i started a long time ago. not sure if the links still are active

read all post its very funny read my post #14 lol

Personally, I think you should only AFA grade if you're selling a rare piece. This ensures the buyer with no/limited knowledge that they're not getting a fake or something of lesser quality/condition. They can even look up AFA's database for further levels of assurance. Again, this service does not seem necessary to seasoned collectors who are keeping their stuff forever.

Even then though, it's a large assumption that AFA knows what the heck they are doing. They've been known many times to grade "rare" items that are actually touch ups, knock offs, and/or forgeries.

I don't do AFA but I thought this was a good topic close to my heart. The simple answer IMO is haters are going to hate no matter who you are, where you are, or what you collect. You just gotta be above them and not worry to much about what other people think. I have tattoos all over my body some people love them, some people HATE them and, they are not afraid to voice it. Some people ask if I have been to prison. Others just gawk disgusted. I have had them long enough to let that slip right by me though. They get so mad when I just laugh and keep walking. I DO make it a point to embrace it tightly when someone does like them. It's like my dad always says, among other funny things: Opinions are like a-holes everybody's got one...I feel you. No matter how annoying the haters are, I must stay above their level of collecting acceptance. I almost feel pity for them for being so petty. Hopefully one day they will accept AFA Joe collectors as they do other Joe collectors. In the mean time I'll just brush the haters off my shoulders and embrace those who support AFA collectors.

Now I just want to clarify, that I am not an AFA hater. I do have a strong opinion on the matter, but am not in that camp. I do feel the AFA part of joe collecting is another animal altogether just like MISB collecting. That also gets real expensive, and fast. I think the AFA phenomenon just takes some of the fun out of collecting...even if you don't feel that it really effects the loose market, I think it does and will so to a greater degree in the future.

I feel you. No matter how annoying the haters are, I must stay above their level of collecting acceptance. I almost feel pity for them for being so petty. Hopefully one day they will accept AFA Joe collectors as they do other Joe collectors. In the mean time I'll just brush the haters off my shoulders and embrace those who support AFA collectors.

Such people come from a place of jealousy, pettiness and greed. Mixed throughly with a large degree of self-entitlement. From my personal experience I don't see such negative sentiment directly solely at AFA collectors.

I feel you. No matter how annoying the haters are, I must stay above their level of collecting acceptance. I almost feel pity for them for being so petty. Hopefully one day they will accept AFA Joe collectors as they do other Joe collectors. In the mean time I'll just brush the haters off my shoulders and embrace those who support AFA collectors.

Exactly. People also think that opening anything sealed is sach religious too. I personally think toys should be open but I am not gonna sit here and tell you guys who collect AFA that it's not cool to lock up good toys in those shiny cases either. Whatever YOU think is right for YOUR collection is unequivocally the RIGHT answer no matter what anyone else says is "right" or "wrong". Even though I think toys are meant to be open I admire MOC AFA they look spiffy...Just like people who won't EVER get a tattoo but love to look at mine. Those graded underoos though...come on.:D I support you guys do whatever feels right for you in your own skin. But you better have a faster sniper than me hahahaha.

It's hard for me to believe that there are people who actually get upset over how another person collects a freakin toy! I personally love afa, not cause I'm stupid and can't judge for myself what kind of condition its in but it displays very nice and helps on the preservation of the toy, especially when its vintage. I mean, in 20+ more years, the vintage line is going to be 50 years old. I don't want my factory sealed skystriker being ripped open by some 5 year old kid who found it displayed in my office.
I actually talked to a guy whos kid ripped open his misb night raven once. It would be a lot harder to do in an afa casing. There are lots of benifits for afa. I don't think there are as many haters as we think.