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bison25
06-15-2004, 02:45 PM
seems the price is going up on these, i bet its people who dont even realize they suck, guys who are older now who want a storm shadow and think to themselfs they are all the same, i remember when i got one a while ago, i opened it and looked at it and was like omg this is pure garbage from the paint to the plastic, the cobra symbol the entire figure...its funny because THAT looks like a childs toy, where as the american figure just looks like a little cool looking ninja or something...maybe this post can raise awareness because if you're shelling out $50+ on this figure you arent going to be happy when you actually look at it live, anyone disagree?

Bison25
06-15-2004, 03:29 PM
ok its bad now, this is just taking advantage of the already deceptive nature of the figure, that would suck if someone walked away paying $40+ for a loose argentina storm shadow with no accessories (atleast a white one) i think this auction should be taken down, i see them taken down by ebay sometimes when they are advertised wrong...which is good to see, you would figure ebay could care less about gi joe figures too...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=2467&item=5904478053&rd=1

Tattoo Shane
06-15-2004, 09:12 PM
I totally disagree. Whether you think it's a bad figure or not it doesn't change the fact that it's a foreign variant, produced for an entirely different market whose economic instabilty was a factor in its poor production quality and because of this they were subsequently produced in far fewer quantities. Therein lies their appeal...believe it or not but sometimes people also collect this stuff for it's inherent collectibility not just because it looks cool or they had it when they were kids or you because you can make neato little armies out of them.

Yes, at this point there are more carded Argen SSs around compared to domestic ones but there are a lot of reasons for that and there's no guarentee that the market will stay this way. There's a really good chance that in a few years the Joe hobby will have progressed to the point where other toy hobbies are and the demand for foreign stuff will far outweigh the supply...who knows, $50 for a cherry Argen SS may seem a really good deal in years to come...and honestly, if you can find a DEAD MINT example of this figure, i don't think $50 is too unreasonable at all, even now.

My Generation Toys
06-16-2004, 05:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tattoo Shane:
I totally disagree. Whether you think it's a bad figure or not it doesn't change the fact that it's a foreign variant, produced for an entirely different market whose economic instabilty was a factor in its poor production quality and because of this they were subsequently produced in far fewer quantities. Therein lies their appeal...believe it or not but sometimes people also collect this stuff for it's inherent collectibility not just because it looks cool or they had it when they were kids or you because you can make neato little armies out of them.

Yes, at this point there are more carded Argen SSs around compared to domestic ones but there are a lot of reasons for that and there's no guarentee that the market will stay this way. There's a really good chance that in a few years the Joe hobby will have progressed to the point where other toy hobbies are and the demand for foreign stuff will far outweigh the supply...who knows, $50 for a cherry Argen SS may seem a really good deal in years to come...and honestly, if you can find a DEAD MINT example of this figure, i don't think $50 is too unreasonable at all, even now.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Once again, Shane has hit it on the head.

Bison25
06-16-2004, 08:25 AM
i'd have to disagree, i understand what you're saying but it would be the minority of collectors who would think this deeply about the hobby to find it appealing as a variant, you really have to have some serious thoughts on the hobby to not just pick it up and go "man this thing is a piece of plastic garbage" there arent many hobbies where something that is shoddy ends up being very valuble just because its neat because it was a variant...where people are philosophizing on the economic times of a poor country and how that produced this particular figure, although i do appreciate that thinking, just not with gi joe figures

the joe bandit
06-16-2004, 08:40 AM
"there arent many hobbies where something that is shoddy ends up being very valuble just because its neat because it was a variant"

Actually don't know if that is true at all. Take stamp collecting. If a plane is put on a stam p upside down, would it not be considered shoddy by stamp standards? I know it is not exactly the same, but I am sure there are many better examples of this. The saying goes - One Man's Trash Is Another Man's Treasure!

zombieguide
06-16-2004, 08:41 AM
i cant help but chime in here...


you know the funny thing about the collecting, and economics in general?

if you dont like it, YOU dont have to buy it. you dont have the right to dictate whats a fair price or not....$50 for an argentine SS may not be of interest to you, but for joe blow out there who wants this figure to complete his collection, $50 may be nothing to him.

as far as the dealers prices, you have no idea what his price is based on:

1) maybe he found it on the sidewalk and now has a $50 price tag on it

2)perhaps he paid $100 for it, and now needs money for whatever reason and will take a loss selling it for $50.

3) maybe he thinks $50 is a fair price from his personal point of view.

regardless of the reason of a price of ANYTHING, the simple fact remains that no one is under any obligation to buy ANYTHING.

people sell things for what the market will pay for it. i personally wouldnt have paid $30 for a Crimson Command Chopper, buy happily paid $15 for it. it just wasnt worth 30 to me, but i didnt bitch, i just lived without.

Tattoo Shane
06-16-2004, 10:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bison:
i'd have to disagree, i understand what you're saying but it would be the minority of collectors who would think this deeply about the hobby to find it appealing as a variant, you really have to have some serious thoughts on the hobby to not just pick it up and go "man this thing is a piece of plastic garbage" there arent many hobbies where something that is shoddy ends up being very valuble just because its neat because it was a variant...where people are philosophizing on the economic times of a poor country and how that produced this particular figure, although i do appreciate that thinking, just not with gi joe figures<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And this is the major difference between serious collectors and the casual guys...and like it or not, there are large numbers of each. I understand what you're trying to say but you seem to looking at things from a very limited perspective. Again, just becuase you personally don't take the hobby as serious as others, doesn't mean that there aren't a lot people out there who do and who look at all the factors you're saying people are ignoring.

If you want to talk about shoddy toys going for big money you only have to look at the vintage Star Wars bootleg market. Some of the most gawd awful toys from some of the most interesting foreign markets have sold for insane amounts of money. The Turkish Uzay bootlegs for example are highly sought after for several reasons and IF you can find MOC examples they sell in the high hundreds or thousands...but if you ever saw them, you'd think they were the worst things around. This is but one example. If you want to look within the Joe community, you can look at the early Funskool figs like the Blue Snake-Eyes or even Storm Shadow's Argentinian counterparts like Glenda, Cobra Mortal, Redmack, etc...same production quality and from the same market as the Storm Shadow but obscenely rare and valuable.

I know this may raise the ire of a few people here but the honest truth is, GI Joe as a collectible hobby isn't taken anywhere near as seriously as many other toy hobbies out there are. There are a lot of people who are either just getting into it and there are those who collect for reasons that aren't factors when it comes to collecting other lines. This particular board of late has been flooded with new people who really don't understand the intricacies of this hobby or toy collecting in general (and that's by no means intended as an insult to these folks, just stating the obvious) and i think you can really sense that in many of the posts (and it's one of the big reasons why i don't post anywhere near as much as i used to).

But regardless of that, there are a LOT of hardcore Joe collectors out there, who aren't active on this board and who take all the aforementioned factors you think people ignore, into account and very seriously. I know the whole "taking the hobby too seriously and it's supposed to be fun" arguement is probably going to come into play now and for the most part i agree with it, however, when you're dropping $1K+ on a piece, regardless of the fact it's just a toy, it's serious money and the hobby needs to be treated that way; all the factors need to be looked at.

Sorry for the long winded rant. ;)

[ June 16, 2004: Message edited by: Tattoo Shane ]

Darko
06-16-2004, 10:53 AM
So, can someone tell me, beyond "sucks" or "garbage" what makes the Argentina Storm Shadow so undesirable? I've seen pictures, and I can't tell much of a difference...

Alkie Ewok
06-16-2004, 12:58 PM
in that pic the cobra sigil looks sloppy...

other than that i'd guess the plastic's crap and bad paint on some.

but even if some are ugly or interesting, they are hard to find, and it is cool to have something no one else, or at least a lot of others, have.

publicenemy
06-16-2004, 01:44 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by zombieguide:
[QB]i cant help but chime in here...


you know the funny thing about the collecting, and economics in general?

if you dont like it, YOU dont have to buy it. you dont have the right to dictate whats a fair price or not....$50 for an argentine SS may not be of interest to you, but for joe blow out there who wants this figure to complete his collection, $50 may be nothing to him.

i think this says it all, don't buy it if you don't like it. it's like the crappy new convention set. i think it blows, so i won't buy it. does that mean you shouldn't either?

Sgt. Moody
06-16-2004, 01:50 PM
I while back i paid $60 for a MOC Argentina white Storm Shadow and a Ninja Ku, both moc for $60 shipped, i could've bought satan too but then the guy wanted $100 for all three, not a bad deal at all, but didnt feel like paying $100, so i just my Ninja Ku and White SS MOC and i was happy!

The Superfly
06-16-2004, 02:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tattoo Shane:
But regardless of that, there are a LOT of hardcore Joe collectors out there, who aren't active on this board and who take all the aforementioned factors you think people ignore, into account and very seriously. [ June 16, 2004: Message edited by: Tattoo Shane ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's a great point. I've got a buddy who doesn't go online at all but just spent $2500 at my local shop on a Flagg, Defiant & Terror Drome among other things. It's easy to forget there's a ton of $erious collectors who don't visit message boards...

Sgt. Moody
06-16-2004, 02:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Superfly:


That's a great point. I've got a buddy who doesn't go online at all but just spent $2500 at my local shop on a Flagg, Defiant & Terror Drome among other things. It's easy to forget there's a ton of $erious collectors who don't visit message boards...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

WOW! Talking about a rip off of the century!

The Superfly
06-16-2004, 03:33 PM
It actually wasn't too bad of a deal; all 3 were MIB and he bought a ton of other MIB stuff too - Moray, Vamp, HQ, some Sears stuff, etc...the guy has a trust fund so he doesn't worry about the price, and he doesn't go on eBay or any message boards so he doesn't hunt for the bargains. Must be nice I guess... :rolleyes:

Sgt. Moody
06-16-2004, 03:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Superfly:
It actually wasn't too bad of a deal; all 3 were MIB and he bought a ton of other MIB stuff too - Moray, Vamp, HQ, some Sears stuff, etc...the guy has a trust fund so he doesn't worry about the price, and he doesn't go on eBay or any message boards so he doesn't hunt for the bargains. Must be nice I guess... :rolleyes:<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Well fi its MIB then its a good deal, and if he got tons of other MIB stuff, its not a bad deal then, but still alot of $$$$$$, no doubt, yeah it must be nice....

My Generation Toys
06-16-2004, 04:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Alkie Ewok:
in that pic the cobra sigil looks sloppy...

other than that i'd guess the plastic's crap and bad paint on some.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Let me just say that the plastic used on the new sculpt figures (JvC-Present) are much worse in quality. The Funskool plastic is worse in quality than the Argentene figures.

These figures are an asset to the GIJoe and they are very under-appreciated as a whole.

My Generation Toys
06-16-2004, 04:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bison:
i'd have to disagree, i understand what you're saying but it would be the minority of collectors who would think this deeply about the hobby to find it appealing as a variant, you really have to have some serious thoughts on the hobby to not just pick it up and go "man this thing is a piece of plastic garbage" there arent many hobbies where something that is shoddy ends up being very valuble just because its neat because it was a variant...where people are philosophizing on the economic times of a poor country and how that produced this particular figure, although i do appreciate that thinking, just not with gi joe figures<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This argument is about the most un-educated view that I've read in a long time.

You aren't thinking of the broader spectrum of collecting. You are focusing on comparing forgein figures to the US version of GIJoe.

Even Canada released figures are slightly different than the US versions. Take the '86 B.A.T. the Canadian versions are a little more black and orange opposed to the black and yellow US version. Some of the names and file cards are changed as well.

There's a difference in the "piece of plastic garbage" thought. It's okay to think that, if you get a poorer quality figure that does not follow the norm within the same line. e.g. plastic deformities, bad paint jobs, bad packaging, etc.

The difference is when you take forgein figures, there are many factors like plastic, paint, molds, economics.

If the forgein figures were meant to be a part of the US line, they would have been released in the US with "Made in Argentina", "Made in Brazil" or "Made in India" stamped on them.

Since they were not released this way, then you have to treat them as Forgein to the US line. They are independent from the US line, but have a place in the GIJoe continuity.

Pete The Greek
06-16-2004, 05:12 PM
Why are people whining like the Italian soccer team in Euro 2004 in regards to foreign figures? Foreign figures were not meant to match or be apart of the American line. They are different in there own ways and I still love collecting foreign guys. Plus I have three versions of the Argentina Storm Shadow that I have stubled upon over the years. The tanned one is nice.

As for the Storm Shadow, the Brazilian one is better than the American one IMO. And if the American version is soooooooo good, why are there so many yellow figures out there. Most of the foreign versions I have observed on ebay are still white.

[ June 16, 2004: Message edited by: Pete The Greek ]

Bison25
06-16-2004, 08:11 PM
the point is that is has been escalating in value a lot lately, also even though i'm not a serious collector i do like a lot of the other foreign figures...chinese,japanese,brazil figures are good, the mexican joe figures have a definite loss in quality but then the argentina figures have a total loss of quality so my only problem is with those, though i think the black and red storm shadow's save that argentina line some respect...but yea thats just my opinion and trust me a lot of people think the same way...i can see how it would irritate you if you are a more serious collector, like i am some kind of simp, but thats just my angle..

Bison25
06-16-2004, 08:25 PM
wait i have been away all day, that was not the only point, the other point was that people are taking advantage of non educated buyers with it now also

Tattoo Shane
06-16-2004, 11:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bison:
wait i have been away all day, that was not the only point, the other point was that people are taking advantage of non educated buyers with it now also<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, then let me play the old axiom: "Collect in a vacuum and you deserve to have all your money sucked away". ;)

Now, if the seller is deliberately misleading people with his descriptions or sloppy pics, then shame on him but if it's simply a matter of the collector not taking the time to learn the market or the variations, then shame on the collector. There are ample resources (be it websites, printed material or message boards) out there that people can take advantage of to help further educate themselves and it's up to them to do it.

Sephiroth
06-16-2004, 11:03 PM
The "Made in Hong Kong" Hasbro Storm Shadow v.1 is the original release of the figure and thus offers the best quality, both in materials used and paint finish. Period.

I could care less about the factors that some collectors use to up the value of foreign releases...in the end, they are only flawed imitations of the original.

My Generation Toys
06-17-2004, 02:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sephiroth:
The "Made in Hong Kong" Hasbro Storm Shadow v.1 is the original release of the figure and thus offers the best quality, both in materials used and paint finish. Period.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


The US version is the best overall quality, but if you look at the Argentene version, you hardly see any that have any yellowing.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sephiroth:
...in the end, they are only flawed imitations of the original.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is the way I feel about any JvC-Present Vipers that use the original 1986 Mold.

With the exception of the Crimson Strike Team, they are a cheap imitation of the original figure.

But, guess what??? Collectors, old and new, love them.

Stileto
02-02-2006, 12:13 PM
Argentina a poor country...? some people only knows what see on TV...:confused::rolleyes: