Uh, oh......Secto Viper Repro Gear!

[j_inmon]

"I'd LOSE hundreds of dollars in value so a repro-maker could make a few bucks? That's just wrong. It's a moral issue to me. I wouldn't do anything to damage any of your collection's value."

You have no moral right to profit or even breaking even. In fact, I would point out that just the opposite is true. By the logic you are using, curing human disease would be immoral. The drug makers and health care industry would loose millions, it would destroy an entire industry and many peoples hard earned money would be wiped out. (money spent on school, hospitals, equipment ect) Coming up with a cheap, clean alternative to fossil fuels would also be immoral for the same reasons. Even the vacuum cleaner would be immoral (think of all the people with inventories of brooms that have lost value!)


"Well, what happens when a repro-maker decides to make an indistinguishable repro of that kickstand for $5? All of the sudden that bike goes from worth ~$200-$300 to being worth $60-$75 like the rest of the specimens with broken kickstands. I'd LOSE hundreds of dollars in value so a repro-maker could make a few bucks?"

And my incomplete Dreadnock Ground Assault goes up in value because more people can complete the vehicle. Look at secto vipers, a loose incomplete figure is already selling for more just due to the availability of these repo helmets. Why should the value of yours be protected at the expense of mine?

"Well, I disagree wholeheartedly. I have bought and sold ~$20,000 of ARAH Joes (loose, carded, AFA, and vehicles) annually for the last three years and I'm here to say you CAN have fun building your collection and selling the excess, and you get most if not all of your money back, if repros don't undercut the value. I record EVERYTHING. Here's the last couple years, as 2013 isn't closed out yet."

Congratulations on making a profit, but that isn't the norm for most joes or even collectibles. And I would guess that most of the profit came from a few key items. (the value of crystal ball isn't going anywhere afa graded or not)

[3DJoes]

Regarding your first paragraph, let's do us all a favor and not compare solving fuel shortages or curing deadly illnesses to making a knock off accessory to "complete" your figure. If you wanted complete legit figure, you could've paid for it like the rest of us.

"And my incomplete Dreadnock Ground Assault goes up in value because more people can complete the vehicle.... Why should the value of yours be protected at the expense of mine? "

Again, that's the "screw your collection, mine's more important" mentality that I can't expect a pro-indistinguishable repro person to step back from.

Your assertion that my profit came from a few items is wrong as well. I'd say 75% turned a profit. I'm not gonna share the in depth notes online, but I'd be happy to share my notes at Joe Con. And I mean that in a totally peaceful way :-)

[j_inmon]

Regarding your first paragraph, let's do us all a favor and not compare solving fuel shortages or curing deadly illnesses to making a knock off accessory to "complete" your figure. If you wanted complete legit figure, you could've paid for it like the rest of us.

I did not compare fuel shortages or curing deadly illnesses to making a knock off accessories, I compared the logic you used to deem them immoral to other examples. Any technological break through that becomes affordable to the masses causes someone else to loose money, be it cell phones causing people to ditch landlines, or casting resin to make repos. And suggesting that someone is immoral simply because they made a repo part is a very strong statement about a lot of folks you have never met.

"Again, that's the "screw your collection, mine's more important" mentality that I can't expect a pro-indistinguishable repro person to step back from."

If you look at all my previous posts I have not even mentioned my own collection, nor have I said "screw your collection, mine's more important" In fact it is you that are trying to tell me what I may buy for my collection (repos that are distinguishable), telling repo makers what they should be aloud to make, and even suggesting that anyone that dose not go along is immoral. This may not be the way you intended the argument, but it is the way it comes off.

As for Joe con I probably wont make it this year, but if I do, I wont pack the boxing gloves

[3DJoes]

Hey J, Sorry for the confusion. I was quoting a well known repro maker from the repro poll thread. Here's the whole quote:
http://forums.yojoe.com/toys-1982-19...tml#post788031

The repro makers want to make money, and they know more identical parts will sell, regardless of the havoc that will cause (devaluing the real deal, enabling other people to sell them as if they were original, etc.).

I am genuinely concerned for the value of people's collections.

I am also concerned that people will get ripped of being sold these as original, only to go to re-sell and discover they have a fake.

I realize a profit driven repro maker is gonna do what's best for him/her.
I also realize some collectors want identical repros, but that's only 26% on the poll.
Consider me the vocal advocate for the 24% that don't want repros mucking up their collection, and/or the 50% that doesn't mind them if they're identifiable as a repro.

The fact is, that 74 percent might not be as vocal, but their votes show the zeitgeist.

[j_inmon]

Its not that I am unconcerned with the value of peoples collections, its that I know whats coming, and it renders this concern futile.
Here is a couple links that you may find interesting 3D Printers Might Get Way Cheaper After 2014 also http://qz.com/106483/3d-printing-wil...f-key-patents/ These printers will change the entire game when they become mainstream. Imagine it, being able to scan in a joe and make as many copies as you want, talk about army building. Buying not a repo part, but downloading a file with a scan of the part and being able to print out multiple copies. Even being able to change details on a figure. Never liked the mustache on the rock viper? No problem you can digitally remove it and print out a mustachless head. Right now the pro distinguishable repo and anti repo people are concerned with a handful of repo makers, but within 5 to 10 years, this handful will become millions and millions of people. This will destroy the repo makers business and dramaticly lower the price of the original. Zeitgeist or not, you cant hold back technology.

[FireFox91]

[GIJoes are a terrible way to invest money.] We keep hearing things like this from the pro-indistinguishable repro crowd.
I have bought and sold ~$20,000 of ARAH Joes (loose, carded, AFA, and vehicles) annually for the last three years...
2011 = $2,148 profit on $20k in sales.
2012 = $2,073 profit on $20k in sales.

Happy early retirement.

...but I hope some of you on the fence hear the logic and SYMPATHIZE with the collectors who won't be able to recoup their investment should they ever choose to sell...

I'd venture to guess some fans of the hobby don't even make 20k per year in salary much less have that much to spend on it every year. But you want them to see YOUR LOGIC and you want their sympathy? Hmmm... good luck with that. GIJoe was created to be fun and to enjoy by kids. It was never intended to turn a profit for anyone but Hasbro and retailers buying from Hasbro. But it can and does turn profits for others in the collectable market, so great. But your logic seems to allude to someone should not be able to enjoy a complete item in their collection through a repro because it hurts your bottom line.

Understand that I am not trying to change your opinion on repros. You have it and it is set it stone. Others including myself have theirs and it is set in stone. No amount of debating is going to change those views. Hotdog is not going to "see the light" and do what you consider the morally right thing and stop making repros. Because what you consider morally correct is not how others see it. Lets say you sway the opinions of some people on the fence to your side. Is that going to stop repros from being made? No, it certainly will not. So what is the point? I'd venture to guess that your contributions to the anti-repro cause only served to polarize people's opinions of you and your website. I believe some said that they were not going to do business with you because if it. So what was truly accomplished? This thread has been going on for weeks and is nothing but a cyclic argument that will never come to an end point other than the age old "agree to disagree". The question is, how much more damage will be done before we get to that point?

[5h4rK]

[3DJoes]

Happy early retirement.

You're kidding, right? I wasn't trying to show off that I've profited from my hobby, just disprove that Joes are a bad investment. Repro-makers use the excuse "Joes are a terrible investment" to try to justify making knock off parts and devaluing the originals, so I just wanted to refute that.

I'd venture to guess some fans of the hobby don't even make 20k per year in salary much less have that much to spend on it every year. But you want them to see YOUR LOGIC and you want their sympathy? Hmmm... good luck with that. GIJoe was created to be fun and to enjoy by kids. It was never intended to turn a profit for anyone but Hasbro and retailers buying from Hasbro. But it can and does turn profits for others in the collectable market, so great. But your logic seems to allude to someone should not be able to enjoy a complete item in their collection through a repro because it hurts your bottom line.

It's not truly complete with a knock off part. And I work hard, make a decent living, and spend waaaay to much of it on Joes. I'm not going to apologize for that or feel like I should hide that. Heck, I spend $1k a year out of pocket to provide a FREE and AD FREE Joe archive for all of the Joe fans out there. I spend $3k per poster to get those produced. I haven't even broken even on the carded one yet and I'm prepping the third poster. I do it for the love and I hope you all support my efforts. If not and I can't recoup my investment, well then I'll have to stop priducing posters. So far, it's looking like I get to keep going. THANK ALL OF YOU who have supported my efforts! You make me look a little less crazy to my wife when she sees orders coming in :-)

Understand that I am not trying to change your opinion on repros. You have it and it is set it stone. Others including myself have theirs and it is set in stone. No amount of debating is going to change those views. Hotdog is not going to "see the light" and do what you consider the morally right thing and stop making repros. Because what you consider morally correct is not how others see it. Lets say you sway the opinions of some people on the fence to your side. Is that going to stop repros from being made? No, it certainly will not. So what is the point? I'd venture to guess that your contributions to the anti-repro cause only served to polarize people's opinions of you and your website. I believe some said that they were not going to do business with you because if it. So what was truly accomplished? This thread has been going on for weeks and is nothing but a cyclic argument that will never come to an end point other than the age old "agree to disagree". The question is, how much more damage will be done before we get to that point?

Mom always taught me to stick up for what I believe in. This is obviously one issue I believe in. I'm not totally anti-repro, just anti-indidtinguishable repro. But as eyes were rolled, my arguments called merit less, and I was called juvenile... well, I was baited into a childish online argument. I've already apologized for my role in that silliness and it did cost me at least one poster sale I know of. That said, live and learn. I won't be baited again.

I love GI Joe. I spend countless hours building something for the whole community to enjoy. I spend MY hard earned money paying for the site and the posters in the hopes the community will get behind the effort and I'll break even. If my views on repros are offensive to some, well, I couldn't help but stick up for what I feel is right.

This is much like a political debate, where the various camps are pretty well entrenched and nothing is likely to change the status quo. Repro makers will continue selling indistinguishable parts for profit, and devaluing folks original complete collections, and I'll still believe that is wrong. Some will still be happy that their once incomplete figures are now "complete," meanwhile unscrupulous folks on ebay will continue selling repros as the real deal, and people will continue getting ripped off.

I probably will start to tune out this debate, since it is probably not going to change the status quo. My time is better spent building 3DJoes and finishing this 90s poster:
3DJoes of the 90s - 3DJOES

[j_inmon]

Understand that I am not trying to change your opinion on repros. You have it and it is set it stone. Others including myself have theirs and it is set in stone. No amount of debating is going to change those views. Hotdog is not going to "see the light" and do what you consider the morally right thing and stop making repros. Because what you consider morally correct is not how others see it. Lets say you sway the opinions of some people on the fence to your side. Is that going to stop repros from being made? No, it certainly will not. So what is the point?

I would say the point is to at least understand where the other side is coming from, and if not change ones mind at least listen to the other sides point of view. We seem to live in a country that is more and more polarized on even trivial issues (there sign says happy holidays and not merry Christmas stuff like that) where everything is spun and taken out of context by someone with an agenda, and people are cramed into a one size fits all lable (dirty liberal, evil money grubbing conservative) I think it is important to see where the otherside is coming from on any issue, even repos.

[Bigbot]

At any rate, there has definitely been a shift in opinion over the years. I remember the days when repro threads, or even questions about where to get them, were either deleted or received a very strong and direct warning. The opinion of the community was very much not in favor of repros. Times change and so do minds I guess.