Larry Hama Hit 'N' Run Original Dossier

[ridetofight]

i really want to keep my mouth shut, i honestly do, but i can't. i want to keep my mouth shut because whoever owns the piece, dictates what happens with it, and rightfully so. however, i can not help but feel... distressed with this. whoever owns them, owns them, knows these are the first times hama's head was put to paper - that paper - the paper you hold. its creases and texture hold all the history of our favorite character's universe. now imagine these pieces just stay hidden from public view, no one knows what the fine print reads and so on. so any chuckle head can type up "possible code names: sgt. poopy pants, grunt stain, grunt, skidmark, sparta town and country carpets, hungry jack - straight from the desk of larry hammock", say its authentic and sell it for copious amounts on ebay. who's to know any better? i think putting these up, making it publicly known in a respected place like yojoe, that YOU own them and have no intent to sell them, is the best way to guard against bogus repros, and share the wealth you own. in terms of depreciation of value... i just... me, once i have the joes i want, i will starve before i part with them. i highly doubt these pieces were acquired for monetary gain, regarding how everyone here speaks about joes. i don't know, thats just me. who is really planning on selling these? i think i can say with confidence that if someone goes throught the pains of framing and displaying it (so so so well i might ad) its not monetary. in as much, it would seriously anger me to know someone held these just to turn them over for a profit. but, y'know what? a lot of stuff angers me, so what? if you shelled out the cash for them, then you can do what you want with them, no harm done. i guess... i just don't understand. and thats fine. two people can not understand each other and still be right on their own merits. just trying to shine a different light on this.

and in all honesty, i put a huge second to a "thanks for putting up with this". you retain my utmost respect for sticking in here with all of us, and answering questions in as respectful a manner as possible. its amazing what a little civility can do on boards.

[KrymsynGardImmoral]

This has been a fun thread to read, becasue it seems to have gotten to a level of who can out type who, with two frighteningly literate individuals on opposing sides. I still think Colonel Mustard did it in the study with the HISS tank, though.

I can see many different sides of this argument, because while I love to share the stuff I have as well, I can understand Shane and Pete's points. It might get to a level where you have to consider the argument on a piece by piece basis. Typed or printed matter is just too easy to photocopy or scan, and distribute. If I owned the pieces spoken of in this thread, I would not want someone to have full access to the original image, because of the possibility of bootlegging. It is an odd situation, because there isn't really a reason to allow access to the original document, when it is the info presented within it that is what others would like. The info can easily be passed on to the community through some broken passages, paraphrased a bit to protect the original, or just summarizing it the way Pete did, with no damage to the integrity or collectability of the orginal piece.

Now, since I brought up the "piece by piece" argument, I think that Joe art is a different story. I own a lot of vehicle sketches, presentation art, and engineering drawings that I am happy to share, and I am not too worried about bootlegging, especially on the colored peices, due to the composition of the art, materials used, etc. Again, printed text on a page is easier to replicate and distribute.

There is also a question of value as it pertains to a piece in one's collection where there is no intention to sell (or at least not at a point in the near future). I am not too worried because, as much as I paid for the pile of stuff I have (and it was a LOT more than I wanted it to be) it really has absolutely NO value currently if my plan is to never sell it. In that respect, it became worthless the day I bought it.

One thing I have is a small book full of concept sketches for one large vehicle. It illustrates action features, offers an exploded view parts breakdown, piece count, all types of whacky info that was needed to present the idea to the guys who make the decisions. It isn't the originals, though, it is a book full of photocopies of the original, all on 8.5X14" paper, copied in brown ink for some reason I have not figured out yet. The originals are either destroyed or possibly still with the big H. My first thought when I laid eyes on it was "hey, i can easily copy this for some of my buddies" when i got SCREAMED at by a friend of mine about how it would devalue it, I should not do it, etc. I felt that the art was the true value, all i have is a pile of brown photocopies. But, I could see his point, and it edged dangerously close to a kind of selfish practicality that might, MIGHT be the close to the heart of this issue. That piece is special to me. Yeah, that is a loaded, emotional term, but what IS collecting IF NOT loaded with emotion? None of us collect toys because it is practical. I am the only one that has it. And, while I am happy to let anyone in the world see it, even put some scans of it up on YoJoe, I still want to be the one that has it. I am willing to share it, but not willing to let someone else own it, after the work I put into finding it, working the deal to get it, and selling random unused organs to afford it, it just would not feel right to copy it a million times over so everyone else in the world can spend 20 minutes reading it over then toss it in the trash or in a pile of magazines or use it for a coaster or something. It's collectible value has been diminished, and that does pertain to it's financial value as well, whether I sell it, or not. It is not an easy argument to make on a practical level, because it becomes an emotional issue. But in the end, it is up to those who own the pieces, and we have to respect what they wish to do, or have done with, their property.

[Tattoo Shane]

I'm really not sure what else there is to say on this matter suffice to say i think this is kind of getting out of hand. Both Peter and myself have shared a good chunk of the interesting tidbits on our dossiers (in this and other threads) and i don't think it's unreasonable in the slightest to try to protect the overall integrity of what these pieces are by not retyping them in their entirety. I honestly believe that in doing so the originals would be cheapened (and not in a monetary sense) and then what i have wouldn't be anywhere near as special as i think it is. Be thankful that we are sharing what we have as there are a lot of folks out there who aren't and i honestly can't blame them after reading some of these replies.

As collectors we have the right to be as secretive or as forthcoming as we want with the items we have in our *personal* collections. There are several cool items i have in my collection that i haven't shared publically nor do i think i'm obligated to, for a variety of reasons. None of us *owe* anyone anything. While some people might think it unfair that some collectors want to withhold information, pictures or whathaveyou the bottom line is that if you own something, you have every right to with it what you want. Just be thankful that there are those great collectors out there who are willing to share what they have and value the orginals enough to try to protect them at the same time. Besides, it looks like Mark is working on something that should appease a lot of you who weren't able to buy these when they first surfaced and he should be totally commended for that.

[Tattoo Shane]

That piece is special to me. Yeah, that is a loaded, emotional term, but what IS collecting IF NOT loaded with emotion? None of us collect toys because it is practical. I am the only one that has it. And, while I am happy to let anyone in the world see it, even put some scans of it up on YoJoe, I still want to be the one that has it. I am willing to share it, but not willing to let someone else own it, after the work I put into finding it, working the deal to get it, and selling random unused organs to afford it, it just would not feel right to copy it a million times over so everyone else in the world can spend 20 minutes reading it over then toss it in the trash or in a pile of magazines or use it for a coaster or something. It's collectible value has been diminished, and that does pertain to it's financial value as well, whether I sell it, or not. It is not an easy argument to make on a practical level, because it becomes an emotional issue. But in the end, it is up to those who own the pieces, and we have to respect what they wish to do, or have done with, their property.

Well said Kevin...i think you summarized my thoughts on this a lot better than i could at this hour.

[ridetofight]

well put sir. well put.

i got drawn into reading this one too, and i'll be darned if i didn't read 5 pages worth. this thread should be bootlegged and sold on the internet. and i think you hit the nail on the head here. why do any of us collect? why do we all pay more money than we should? i hate to say i'm emotional about gi joes, but, there it is. ...good lord i need to start spending more time with my girlfriend... "sorry honey, i'm hanging out with my joes tonight on the board, trying to find out when their new friends are coming to town and arguing about their birth certificates"... bless that woman, she is a saint.

[jabba the drunk]

I still think Colonel Mustard did it in the study with the HISS tank, though.

Now that was funny, Kev!

Now, since I brought up the "piece by piece" argument, I think that Joe art is a different story.

Yep, I agree with you here. Artwork is something I'd be more willing to make public, for the reasons you mentioned. I don't have much of it, like you have in your awesome preproduction collection. But what I do have, I've taken pictures of an posted here.

Now, I'm pretty psyched to eventually see the framing job that Dan is doing with his Hit N Run. From what I gather about it, it'll be pretty sweet. By the way, I'm looking for an uncut, unripped Baroness cardback (with bubble still attched, most probably) to frame up my Baroness dossier next. Anybody out there have one they'd like to sell?

-Peter

[Graz73]

Thanks for posting that Destro info again Peter. You are not obligated to share that info, but I'm as happy reading that post as I would be reading the original. THANKS!

...If I owned the pieces spoken of in this thread, I would not want someone to have full access to the original image, because of the possibility of bootlegging. It is an odd situation, because there isn't really a reason to allow access to the original document, when it is the info presented within it that is what others would like. The info can easily be passed on to the community through some broken passages, paraphrased a bit to protect the original, or just summarizing it the way Pete did, with no damage to the integrity or collectability of the orginal piece....

That is a good way to say it Krymsyngard666...

NO ONE can have everything. When it comes to owning original artwork, or owning every figure, that is OK, and makes sense. BUT when it comes to INFORMATION, like the things in these files it seems like we should all have access to it. Imagine if yojoe didn't exist. Would some collectors be hoarding rare file cards? Not telling anyone what Claymore's file name was, or something?

I hope that Mark's book can find most of this information to preserve...

[Obiwanjacoby]

. . .this won't hurt, but it might pinch a bit.

Great posts all. I enjoyed all of it, and I mean that. Like Krym was pointing out, everyone's very passionate about this, and so afraid they'll lose something they fought so hard to get. Really, I'm not being dismissive about everyone's feelings. Listen, I understand that fear. But I'm asking people to look beyond their subjective feelings and look at the objective facts.*

But first, let's summarize my wacky insane POV. . .

I claim that TatShane and Pete can dupe their dossiers word-for-word (Why "WFW"? I'll get to that in a minute).

I state it in a positive hopeful manner. I say, "Hey gang, I got a great idea where everyone can have their cake & eat it too." Happy?

Tat & Pete just say "No!"

Genuinely puzzled. . .I ask, "why not???" and submit many practical, rational suggestions on how they can get this going.

The reply back is a vague smokescreen defense, stating. . .

"Doing so will 'devalue' it."

Completely ignoring all my helpful ideas. WTF?!?

Undaunted, I don't jump to conclusions as normal fanboy behavior would suggest. And feeling totally cool with facing this (ahem) challenging argument, I look at the wall rather callously built in front of me and wonder if I should climb it. . .or just let it go. After all. . .like it was stated earlier, collectors are (in general) kind of emotionally sensitive.

But ohhhh. . .I can't help myself. I got this "agenda" see.

So I go for it. Hoping some of them will wake up and see the big picture and I won't have to tell 'em outright. I hope to scream their "agenda" is just the same as mine is. Why wouldn't it, given the content of their writing? They all circle the edge of it and dance around the most important part of this topic. . .yet they still avoid it.

I ask, "How will it be devalued?"

Saying that puts myself in a vulnerable position, so I brace myself. I'm expecting a real schooling now from uber collectors that have been doing this a lot longer than me.

:drum roll:

"It-just-does, PJ. And by the way, shut up. You're irritating us by bringing it up."

Huh?!??? And I get additional slaps on the hand for asking to clarify such a position.

*I watch PBS shows all the time showing off rare (often handwritten) manuscripts from famous authors all the time. The value of these items just keep going up no matter how they're pictured.

And then I suddenly realized. . .these shows are only making the original works more popular. The TRUTH is that's it's completely the opposite from the way Tat and Pete see it. What they're in danger of doing is suffocating the heart and soul of GIJoe ARAH, which was Larry Hama's written work. Most Joe collectors don't realize why they love ARAH, or why they prefer "old sculpts to new". Shyah right. . .as if it were really about the figure. I know what it is, & so do you.

Out of the four most popular and most original multimedia children's toylines ever (MOTU, ARAH, SW, & TFG1), which has the most educational value and historical significance? Who's responsible for all of it? People like Rudat & Hama (and many others w/them). Who-- if they are forgotten, will see their legacy die; to give kids something a bit more sophisticated and of lasting value than The Cabbage Patch Kid.

Where else did the main characters of a children's ANYTHING ever quote Voltaire, hold a grudge dating back to Cromwell, practice holistic medicine, plot artillery azimuths, could find Annapolis on a map, have MPD and get mobbed by the media for saying it, speak with a Gaelic lilt, break everything in a Zen monastery, step down from the Cambridge Sociology Dept., fight in the Foreign Legion Paras in Algeria, speak ancient Greek, relates the basic concept of a basic MEME in one sentence, speaks Spanish, French, Arabic, Swahili, and much much more. . .all in the FIRST SIX YEARS!???

You do owe us. You owe us bigtime. And the people you bought that stuff from scalped you harder than any Joe scalper ever has in toy history. . .because they owed us first. And what you see above and have framed in your hall, that's what you owe every single fan. All I offered was a simple amicable solution. And it was done without any other motive with total respect for the privacy and property rights of the original that you own.

You own the very thing that can keep the mythos going. The 3&3/4" line is flatlining. The heart of GIJoe is in your hands to do with as you please. Are you with us, or against us?

I know you'll do the right thing if you love the hobby as much as I know you do. I hope we all share the same agenda.

-PJ

[KrymsynGardImmoral]

Oh man....This could not be better...Paul, did you take some sort of Uber-debating class? Now, the collapse of western civilization (as it pertains to the 33/4" Joe community and market) and the future of the struggle of good vs. evil collectors (you did say "with us or against us") rest squarely on the shoulders of Pete and Shane, and their willingess to fully disclose the verbal content of two 8.5X11" pieces of paper written by a guy that was once on MASH that they have hanging in their collections?

Just brilliant. You can't script this stuff. You guys have me rolling.

I do think you're overestimating the Joe market just a tad by comparing it to the market for original manuscripts from famous authors. While it is true that an original manuscript from someone like Mark Twain (I just pulled it out of my butt) is not devalued by the fact that millions of copies are bought and sold and read and owned and thrown out and burned etc...I think even Larry Hama, who I agree, was a fanastic and creative author, and whose work greatly inspired me just through his involvement with the joe line...he isn't Mark Twain. He would probably agree with that. And until there are college classes taught on the literary impact of the great american file card, that argument is as flawed as you say Pete and Shane's is.

And I am starting to think that you might be less concerned with the actual disclosure of the dossiers than you are angry that they are unwilling to do it.

Now, don't get me wrong, I do see your point about sharing the items, just not as...entertainingly, or passionately...as you seem to. But I do think that if the word "agenda" wasn't tossed at you, you might have picked a different wall to scale. I think there isn't really a need to reprint it all word for word, I would be happy with paraphrased passages myself.


But please, the last thing I want to see is all this end. it is too much fun to read! Way better than the "Sigma 6 sux" threads permeating the boards.

[Tattoo Shane]

PJ, i see where you're coming from but only to a degree. Yes, i think this is very cool and important information that Joe fans would love to have which is exactly why i have shared the interesting differences between the FC and dossier like i have, it's why Peter has and it's why Mark is working on his project but i honestly don't see why you're so adamant about them being reproduced in thier entirety and why you're having such a hard time grasping why we're reluctant to do it.

Peter, Kevin and myself have all laid down valid points and while you keep harping that we're missing your question or points, you're totally missing ours at the same time. Never once have i said that i thought the financial value of my dossier would depreciate. What i have said, and pay attention so you don't miss it again, is that in my personal opinion i think the *integrity* of my original would be devalued. That's my opinion...i don't have to justify it if that's how i feel as a collector. It's special to me because i'm the only one who has access to it, i worked hard to get it, paid a pretty penny and you'll forgive me for being reluctant to think that every person in the world who ever touched a Joe toy is entitled to what it contains. No collector, big or small, *owes* anyone anything.

I personally think that a very fair compromise has already been made in relation to the information and i'm sorry if you think i'm being unreasonable by not allowing them to be directly republished. I guess this is where we'll agree to disagree...you don't get my point and i don't get yours. The fact is, i'm a collector who likes to collect rare and important items. It takes a lot of time, energy, and money to pursue these types of items and i'm sorry if i feel personally protective of them but that's just the way it goes. By no means does it give you justification to try to vilify myself or other high-end collectors by trying to make us out to be the bad guy. If anything your constant dredging of the subject and you're "you big meanies owe all of us something" attitude is only going to make people more reluctant to share.