Illegally produced G.I.Joe accessories

[CGC]

snip...
GENONEGUY is trouble. He started this topic but where is since then? This thread is only working out because it is a topic that has been raised before and of the people posting in it.

Another warning.
If you have an issue with anybody here, take it up via pm. If it's a trade issue, post in the Bad Trader's forum. Vague slams have no place here.

That's 2 strikes on this thread.

[MikePrime]

To me, a repro piece like a microphone is only about the appearance of the figure. I would still not consider the figure to be complete, which is why I never bother with figures that are sold with accessory pack weapons.

[RedClaw]

What about the collectors that are not out to drop a car payment on a piece? They just want to have a "complete" figure for their collection. Those that it doesn't matter to if it is the real deal or a fake. As long as they had that gun, mic, sword in the piece of plastic's hand sitting on their shelf.

Well, generally speaking, that's a lot of people who want their figures to look right. For example, the antenna on NF Lt. Falcon's pack. But...how do you do that without making a reproduction so good, so close to the original that you can't tell? I mean, would you buy a reproduction to finish off the figure if it was blaze orange? Most likely not. You would want it as close to the original as possible, right? Hardtop would look pretty bad with a neon green mic instead of a white one, but who would want it? A fair compromise would be to paint it, but again, in an eBay photo how can you tell? You're expecting the honor system, and as we know from history, there are a lot of grifters and scammers in the toy world.

As for the cost thing. I hate to say it, but there are the haves, and the have-nots. It's a fact of life. If you don't want to spend that kind of money, then you shouldn't expect to have it. That's like me saying I can't afford a new Dodge Viper GTS, so I'll get someone with a machine shop to reproduce the car for me for a fraction of the cost, but look identical (I know, that's not a perfect analogy, but it gets the point across). Is that fair to the manufacturer or the customer who is buying and selling for the legitimate price? Not only is it not fair, but blatantly illegal and unethical.

[GI Trekker]

Well, my take on it is this -- if someone is trying to sell a figure and passing off repro parts as the originals, then that's fraud, pure and simple, and it is illegal.

If, on the other hand, someone is selling parts that are specifically stated to be reproductions, that's a little shakier. Is it copyright infringement? Probably. Does Hasbro care enough? Debatable at this point in time. Might it be a service to a collector that only wants his figures or vehicles to look complete and decent for the sake of his own collection and can't afford a high-priced original? Probably.

Granted I'm probably the last person to talk about accessory pieces, since unless it's something that specifically attaches to the figure, like a helmet mike, it's not something I pay all that much attention to.

Let's take this as an example -- I have several Cobra-La Royal Guards that don't have their antennae-mikes. This is a fairly large part. It's also a fairly easily lost part. If someone made reproductions that were otherwise indistinguishable from the original and offered them three for a dollar or something, would I get them? Probably. I'm not looking to sell those Royal Guards on eBay as authentic complete originals. They're part of my personal collection, I expect they'll stay that way, and while I can certainly see and understand the ethical/legal side of this matter, I also wouldn't mind having complete-looking Royal Guards.

Someone out there -- I forget who -- either makes or has made repro labels for G.I.Joe vehicles. I can think of several vehicles I have or have had in the past where the original labels have deteriorated, and obviously getting replacements after all these years isn't likely to happen. Something like this could've saved my SkyStriker.

There's two sides to this story. I understand and to a degree agree with the legal ramifications of it. At the same time, I can understand that there's a lot of perfectly legitimate G.I.Joe fans and collectors out there, who enjoy the hobby as much as any of us, who do not have the resources -- time, money, whatever -- to track down authentic originals of parts that could be extremely scarce. We're not talking Action Figure Authority here, people. They just want to complete their vehicle or figure for their own sake, as reasonably as possible.

AND -- if there were not a market for repro items, they wouldn't exist. The number of small G.I.Joe parts that have been sucked up by vacuum cleaners or lost in sandboxes over the past 25 years would probably fill a two-car garage. Hasbro is not about to provide replacement pieces for them. So someone else does. And unless they're trying to pass them off AS authentic or gouging the customer, and admittedly there are those that do so, or step over the line in other respects, I don't have THAT big of a problem with it.

[djett]

Yep it is,
but thats really not the argument, speeding is illegal so is drinking to much for that matter.

lets debate this with a diffent argument.

BTW good job to everyone for keeping this mostly civil.

"Caveat Emptor"

[RedClaw]

Yep it is,
but thats really not the argument, speeding is illegal so is drinking to much for that matter.

lets debate this with a diffent argument.

The thread is specifically about legality and ethical bahavior.

[Speed Racer]

As for the cost thing. I hate to say it, but there are the haves, and the have-nots. It's a fact of life. If you don't want to spend that kind of money, then you shouldn't expect to have it. That's like me saying I can't afford a new Dodge Viper GTS, so I'll get someone with a machine shop to reproduce the car for me for a fraction of the cost, but look identical (I know, that's not a perfect analogy, but it gets the point across). . . .

That's what the kit car market is for. The companies that make them may not offer the Doge Viper but replicas of several high dollar cars are available. Also, try telling people who restore vintage cars that reproductions are a bad thing for their hobby. If it weren't for reproductions the hobby wouldn't even exist.

Legal or not, there's always going to be collectors who hate reproductions and they're entitled to their opinion but the "haves and have-nots" reasoning always comes across as sounding arrogant to me.

[Inspector Sledge Hammer]

That's what the kit car market is for. The companies that make them may not offer the Doge Viper but replicas of several high dollar cars are available. Also, try telling people who restore vintage cars that reproductions are a bad thing for their hobby. If it weren't for reproductions the hobby wouldn't even exist.

I really think that the car market may be the best analogy, so let's see if I can explain this using a car that everyone is familiar with, the 71 Cuda that was seen in the TV show Nash Bridges.

The body style of the Cuda was built from 1970 - 1974 I believe, but the 71 version was the only one that had the slots in the fender, so if we go with 10,000 cars built per year, then there are 40,000 cars that share the similar body style, but only 10,000 with that fender pattern. Then if you go for one of the higher end engines, either the 426 Hemi or the 440, then your numbers do down a lot. Then if you find out that there are only 50 cars or so that have that engine size, as well as being a convertible, you have 50 cars out of 40,000 that can go for approximately $100K.

So, let's say that you have one of these 50 cars, and somehow parts of your car get damaged, or say you find one stripped that you want to restore, are you going to refuse to use these parts? Almost every single collector is going to say no, on the simple reason that they are attempting to complete their prized part of their collection. Are these cars sold with these repro parts? Yes. Are they always identified as such? Not always. Do a lot of the owners usually care? Many of them are just happy to have the car they wanted. How about any metal patches that may have been installed to replace damage? Does that metal patch make the car less valuable, even though it is not an original piece of metal?

While the analogy is not exact, just because of the amount of product made between action figues and cars, the situations are similar. Who's to say in 15-20 years, collectors are going to realize that as long as the figure has what it should have per yojoe, Mark Bellomo's book, or any other piece of reference material, that it will be considered complete?

[TheReverend]

Yep it is,
but thats really not the argument, speeding is illegal so is drinking to much for that matter.

lets debate this with a diffent argument.

BTW good job to everyone for keeping this mostly civil.

"Caveat Emptor"

As far as I know: “Drinking too much” isn’t really illegal, in itself. Unless you go out driving, or cause a disturbance, or make a public nuisance of yourself, etc. otherwise you can get as drunk as a skunk and you generally aren’t breaking any laws, last time I checked (at least I hope not )

But yeah man I have to agree with you on the good ol’ “Caveat Emptor” you do need to know what you’re buying, and be sure it’s what you want…

Personally for my part “Illegal”, “Bootleg”, or whatever you want to call them parts don’t bother me. If I can get a heavy metal mic for $5.00 instead of $125 (or more), I’m all for it, be it Illegal or not…

And on the “Haves & haves not” thing, I can afford a heavy metal mic at what they are going for (if I felt the need to buy one), I can also afford most other Joe items I might want, but why spend that extra money if I don’t have to? I collect because I find it fun, and enjoy the toys. I don’t do it for resale, or so I can try to be better then other collectors because I have something they don’t, or any other reason. I just like the toys…that’s all…

So if I can get repo stuff cheaper, I personally am game.

Then I can use the rest of my money for some high dollar Scotch, get real drunk and test my whole drinking too much isn’t illegal theory…haha

But I do fully respect all others opinions, and understand the other trains of though on this topic... that's just how I feel...

[thunt4]

As I always say in every post like this here are my reasons. Number one if we lived in a perfect honest world this subject would not matter. But we don't live in a perfect world and if one person out of 100 rips someone off its a problem. I get a fake diamond and it looks real and I know its not and sell it to someone who thinks and believes its real but can not hold it and look at it to verify is that fair for that person no? Now you will say well its a diamond and its different. Well its not, the only difference is the mic costs less and there is less market for a plastic mic.Cars is an ok example as stated above but whats failed to mention is if you have a mint unrestored car its selling for a ton more.Yes you can tell if a car is restored. You may have a perfect example but to people that do it yes they can tell. With his whole repro part debate plain and simple you are taking a licensed product and making a direct cast of it and thats illegal. If you changed it some then i don't believe it is illegal at that point because then you changed it and its not there design anymore. Now the major problem as stated you can't look at this mic in person to verify if its real or not. A picture can't really let you know unless its a perfect picture of it and the color is perfect in the photo. If its a dark day you may not see the true color of it and be mislead. When I got my first heavy metal mic I was extremely excited because it took a few years to find. To anyone wanting a repro you want it becasue of two things, 1 its a cheap price which is all fine and good,2 you want it to appear to be the same. So really you are not willing to have a different color. To me that makes it more of an investment than just having fun because if it was just having fun it would not matter what color it was just as long as it looked similiar and served its purpose.Like redclaw said about the laziness of people. I search for a few years and found one for $20 in a lot. If you want one bad enough you can search too and find an original for cheap but it takes time. If you start to introduce everything repro eventually it boils down to who has the most money completes there collection the quickest. Its not about finding anything which to me makes it fun but you can find it all readily available when you have the amount of money it takes to buy it. To people who say they are going to keep there collection forever thats fine because I have that mentality but I also realize that some day we will die also and if your family is not into joes they sell it so then that repro now gets sold as original. I know if I worked and saved my money for something that was supposed to be original and got a fake I would be mad. Its annoying when things can be simple to make everyone happy but they are not. Look at the viper pit. You have vipers that are similiar to original but noticeably different and now you have two options. If you don't have enough for a few originals you can now buy the new ones for $20 and have the same concept for less and then everyone is happy. No fakes no nothing to get in an uproar about. I think thats all for now. lol