A perfect example of why some collectors won't share images of rare stuff

[green firefly]

So this legal stuff is making me confused. (Im dating a 3rd year Law student, so I guess I shouldnt be! :P ) For example, right now I am working on a 2007 Legions Cobra Commander custom card using both the vintage art from 1983 and from the Legions Box. Im also making a 25th anniversary card for the same figure.

Lets say it turns out awesome and somebody wants to buy it from me? Am I doing something illegal? Cause Im not down with that. How could I rectify this? By paying a royalty to Hasbro? Does anybody do this? Like Star Wars custom card makers?

Also, just using is just using the GIJOE and Cobra logos illegal? Because I dont really modify those images. Any answers would be appreciated?

It's not a simple topic. There are gray areas. Giving legal advice is also usually not a good idea.

http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.html

[Tattoo Shane]

Ok I understand someone took your image without permission and created some custom cardbacks w/figures which he is/was selling on Ebay and in his webstore. I am not saying he is right for those actions he took and should of at least ask you if it would be ok to do but seriously what is the big deal with this?

I think you just answered your own question.

Are you personally being hurt or damaged in this situation where you had to come to a public forum and threaten to never show / share your unique one of kinds with fellow collectors because of the actions of this one individual.

If you've ever paid attention to these forums you'd know that there's been a debate about why people won't share images with the archives or the community going on for years. I've *always* been a proponent of sharing images and info and have done so on numerous occasions, as well as having them posted on my site for people to see.

I'm not coming here to "threaten" anything. I'm telling it like it is and proving a point as to why others, and now myself, won't show this sort of stuff. And yeah, it is the actions of one individual that led to this and IMO that's one individual too many.

Do you feel it is degrading your items by doing what he did

Honestly, yes i do. I think this stuff should be repsected for what it is and not cheapened by making copies of it for everyone to be able to have. Some people aren't going to like that POV and that's their perogative. If they have a problem with it, they can go out and drop the cash to own these kinds of things and crank out as many copies of them as they want. But it's been my experience that those who want cheap repros of everything aren't the ones willing to spend the money, time, energy and resources to continually find these types of things.

or are you more upset that he is showing an image that you know is yours and using it to make money on?

Who wouldn't be upset about that, seriously?

Just out of curiosity if this or any other person would of asked you if they could of used this image or others to create custom cardbacks and offer them for sale (reasonably priced) what would you of said? Would it have mattered if they offered you part of the cut (ex. a royalty for everyone sold).

As i said eariler in this thread, i'm totally opposed to repros so it wouldn't have mattered who came to me offered to make them, even if i got 100% of the cut. This isn't about money, it's about principal and the fact that some people clearly have no respect and will do anything to make a buck.

I really don't see why it is that you feel the need to put me under the microscope here. Someone blatantly stole images from my site and Mark Bellomo's book. A post was made to find out who was responsible, to alert people to this person's actions and to express my unhappiness with the situation. As a long standing member here, i'm pretty sure it's within my right to do just that. If you can't understand that, i guess that's your problem but i'm not going to be dragged into some pithy little debate over it when i'm 100% in the right.

And thanks again to everyone for their support and help with all of this. It's really nice to see.

[roboticplanet]

I'm no legal authority, but basically it sounds like if you are using someone's intellectual or copyrighted property without permission it is indeed illegal. If Hasbro has a disclaimer on their website saying images and logos can be used without consequence then you're in the clear. Of course, as you can see from this thread, it really only becomes an issue when money gets involved.

[gaelinic]

As i said eariler in this thread, i'm totally opposed to repros so it wouldn't have mattered who came to me offered to make them, even if i got 100% of the cut. This isn't about money, it's about principal and the fact that some people clearly have no respect and will do anything to make a buck.

I really don't see why it is that you feel the need to put me under the microscope here. Someone blatantly stole images from my site and Mark Bellomo's book. A post was made to find out who was responsible, to alert people to this person's actions and to express my unhappiness with the situation. As a long standing member here, i'm pretty sure it's within my right to do just that. If you can't understand that, i guess that's your problem but i'm not going to be dragged into some pithy little debate over it when i'm 100% in the right.

Nice strawman argument there, guy. By attacking another person you do not make yourself magically right 100 percent.

The guy is offering a cardback of a figure some people would like to have for their own collection. With the way information spreads today, no one would mistake that cardback with an authentic joe collectible. However, he could be creating a separate collectible. I don't think he's cheapening the line. If anything, an argument could be made that he's actually creating value out of something that never existed.

Should he have gotten your permission? Sure, why not. Is he defacing, insulting, or cheapening the line? I'm not convinced.

[PrimeNYBT]

Me personally if someone wanted to use pic of something that I own thats rare to make a profit. Or even just to give out. I'd say no. I didn't work super hard or pay big bucks to get these rare items just so they can be given out or sold by the hundreds. I don't mind showing my items to people. I think they should be show to all like a museum and let the information about those items be given out. Like where it came from how many might be out there stuff like that.

This is why I can't stand the people who make exact copys of lets say heavy metal's mic, in the same color. I didn't spend what ever amount on mine so that anyone can have it and not be able to tell the difference between a real one and a fake. And yes people who do make copys of rare collectables do take away from, maybe not the monetary value, but the rarity of an item, the awwww of it, the "oh my god you own that". In stead it turns into, "man I seen that before its nothing special". In my opinon collecting is about effort, pride, and caring. The effort you put in to the hunt. The pride you have in what you have. If you care enough about your collection you are going to want orignals and not knock offs.

Man I know I'm getting flamed for this post. all well its how I feel

[gaelinic]

Me personally if someone wanted to use pic of something that I own thats rare to make a profit. Or even just to give out. I'd say no. I didn't work super hard or pay big bucks to get these rare items just so they can be given out or sold by the hundreds. I don't mind showing my items to people. I think they should be show to all like a museum and let the information about those items be given out. Like where it came from how many might be out there stuff like that.

This is why I can't stand the people who make exact copys of lets say heavy metal's mic, in the same color. I didn't spend what ever amount on mine so that anyone can have it and not be able to tell the difference between a real one and a fake. And yes people who do make copys of rare collectables do take away from, maybe not the monetary value, but the rarity of an item, the awwww of it, the "oh my god you own that". In stead it turns into, "man I seen that before its nothing special". In my opinon collecting is about effort, pride, and caring. The effort you put in to the hunt. The pride you have in what you have. If you care enough about your collection you are going to want orignals and not knock offs.

Man I kow I'm getting flamed for this post. all well its how I feel

Man, I respect opinions. I ain't gonna flame you for them. I just don't like attacks on people when you don't agree with them.

As for what you said, something about the way you said it makes me reconsider the argument. I guess that's the nature of collecting. Maybe I'm just not a hard core collector to really understand that.

[TYPE*S*TOYS]

I think you just answered your own question.

I guess I did and did not even realize it lol

If you've ever paid attention to these forums you'd know that there's been a debate about why people won't share images with the archives or the community going on for years. I've *always* been a proponent of sharing images and info and have done so on numerous occasions, as well as having them posted on my site for people to see.

I guess I have not paid that close of attention to this subject but I now have a better understanding and appreciation for what you are / were doing.

I'm not coming here to "threaten" anything. I'm telling it like it is and proving a point as to why others, and now myself, won't show this sort of stuff. And yeah, it is the actions of one individual that led to this and IMO that's one individual too many.

I admit the verbage "threaten" was not correct here and have edited my original post.

Honestly, yes i do. I think this stuff should be repsected for what it is and not cheapened by making copies of it for everyone to be able to have. Some people aren't going to like that POV and that's their perogative. If they have a problem with it, they can go out and drop the cash to own these kinds of things and crank out as many copies of them as they want. But it's been my experience that those who want cheap repros of everything aren't the ones willing to spend the money, time, energy and resources to continually find these types of things.

I think this is where a lot of difference of opinions will come into play. If I owned a piece of original art (such as the Strato Viper) I would be ok if someone made the repro figures such as the seller was doing as long as somewhere on the card it had a reference / credit back to me the original owner. I just think it would bring more recognition to the original piece and thus make it even more valuable. I guess we all know this is not realistic as those in it for a quick buck would probably never do this.

Who wouldn't be upset about that, seriously?

true

As i said eariler in this thread, i'm totally opposed to repros so it wouldn't have mattered who came to me offered to make them, even if i got 100% of the cut. This isn't about money, it's about principal and the fact that some people clearly have no respect and will do anything to make a buck.

when I hear the term "repros" I am thinking accessories and did not think of cardbacks. my bad.

I really don't see why it is that you feel the need to put me under the microscope here. Someone blatantly stole images from my site and Mark Bellomo's book. A post was made to find out who was responsible, to alert people to this person's actions and to express my unhappiness with the situation. As a long standing member here, i'm pretty sure it's within my right to do just that. If you can't understand that, i guess that's your problem but i'm not going to be dragged into some pithy little debate over it when i'm 100% in the right.

As a long standing member myself I am sure it is within my right to try to understand more of this topic and debate what is being discussed. It is obvious we both have different opinions on this matter and that is a big part of public forums and what makes them so unique and fun.

And thanks again to everyone for their support and help with all of this. It's really nice to see.

To be honest I was very close to emailing the seller to see if I could buy one of the custom Strato Vipers but now that I have a better understanding of the passion you have for these unique items you own I will not do this. I guess you can say I support you on this

[starrcommand]

Would anyone like it if they spent thousands on something. Or just years searching, trying to find one specific item, for a one of a kind item. Then all of a sudden someone steals images of it. Then it’s posted or reproduced and copies of it are every where. How would you feel?

[GBPackRat]

Would anyone like it if they spent thousands on something. Or just years searching, trying to find one specific item, for a one of a kind item. Then all of a sudden someone steals images of it. Then it’s posted or reproduced and copies of it are every where. How would you feel?

Dave,

I'm glad you pointed this out... I too was very curious about the "secret" society of GI Joe collecting. For the first few years I didn't understand it and thought it was more of a click than anything else.

Then I started to put the time, funds and work into finding these items and have come to realize, its more of a secret society because people work hard at getting access to these items.

It doesn't seem fair to those who invested in the up front costs (more than just funding) so that others can make a buck off them.

I'd be like you taking a test, getting everything right, but having to study non stop for weeks before, then someone comes in, copies off you over your shoulder and gets the same grade without studying a lick...

Starting to understand where it puts us more rare collectors? The group stays a secret group and we share among ourselves because we all understand how much work it went into getting our items. Because of this, we respect what each other has. I've talked to and see some of the stuff these people have and believe me, you can find out about them, you can get in with this crowd, its not impossible. I was on the outside looking in just five years ago and now I'm on the inside looking out...

BTW, I really thought this thing would be more supportive than it has been. It started out fairly supportive, but like Kevin pointed out, just a year ago this would have become a really big debate and the flaming would begin. Sadly, though it took more time, I think this thread is heading in that direction...

Tanner

[Tim F.]

Would anyone like it if they spent thousands on something. Or just years searching, trying to find one specific item, for a one of a kind item. Then all of a sudden someone steals images of it. Then it’s posted or reproduced and copies of it are every where. How would you feel?

Why spend thousands on something to keep it hidden??? That seems a little sad to me. Surely there are more lucrative investments right? So it can't be about the long term value right?

How would I feel if something I searched for for ever suddenly became readily available??? Well I might feel pretty stupid for wasting all that time and/or money, but I certainly wouldn't blame others for it. Or I might be happy knowing that I have the original and no matter how many copies they make, that doesn't change that fact.

Just out of curiosity, should we be mad that they shared GI Joe with other countries??? Didn't they just "rip off" toys designed specifically around American military and slap a foreign flag on it? I mean copying is copying right? Should we organize and form picket lines or just realize they're toys.