WOW this is getting really old! AFA related.

[hotdog]

I am trying hard to word this carefully, and this is a sincere question.

Did you ever stop to think that these sellers are selling to a specific group of collectors that pay higher prices for graded figures?

but are you getting a better product because of the afa grade?
when i started collecting figures in 00-01, paint rub and light scares or discoloration made the figure c-7 (acording to my lees guide), but it would seem to me (i saw a blue snaggletooth auction about 1 month ago) that a figure thusly worn was an afa grade 85 (c 8.5).
perhaps i do not understand the grading curve, but to me at least it seemed to generate a little confusion and hesitation to purchase.

[The Amazing Mutato]

I am trying hard to word this carefully, and this is a sincere question.

but are you getting a better product because of the afa grade?
when i started collecting figures in 00-01, paint rub and light scares or discoloration made the figure c-7 (acording to my lees guide), but it would seem to me (i saw a blue snaggletooth auction about 1 month ago) that a figure thusly worn was an afa grade 85 (c 8.5).
perhaps i do not understand the grading curve, but to me at least it seemed to generate a little confusion and hesitation to purchase.

This does bring up a good point. I remember a few years ago there was a youtube video of a guy opening up a 7.5 (I think) Metal Head and getting it re-graded. And it came back as a 8.0! So I have very little faith in AFA stuff. I have also seen someone shell out over $1,000 for an AFA graded Storm Shadow, and about 3 months later the "O-ring" broke inside the pack! I thought that was ironic!

Anyhoo, I am really glad I started this thread. Someone just contacted me with a bunch of MOC figures he has for sale. NOT AFA graded, in great condition and NOT ONE over $35.00!!!!

[Average Joe]

I agree with the majority in this thread. To pay more money, simply for someone's opinion does seem a bit foolish. Personally, it makes more sense for me to inspcet an item myself to determine its condition. I've tried, but I'll never understand anyone wanting to pay extra money for an item simply because someone else says it's in great condition. Do such a person value their own opinion less than some stranger's?

That being said, I don't fault the guys who get the stuff graded with the intent of selling it. They know there are people out there who will pay more than an item is worth, simply because AFA has layed their holy hands on the item. What baffles me besides the people who buy this AFA stuff, is the people who send items from their own personal collection to get graded with no intent on ever selling the item. Paying money, just to have someone else tell you that it's in good condition....foolish.

[Lt. Night Viper]

I think I see and understand both sides on this. This is my take. I do believe that most people selling afa graded items seem to think it's worth more then it is. But then again, something is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. That being said, when you buy an afa graded item, you know what you are getting. You know the seller couldn't have tampered with it or been less then exact in its description. Buying things on ebay, you are at the mercy of that description and whatever picture they put in the auction.

As far as people being really down on the AFA, I think the whole idea of it is to have a standard people can trust. Personally, I'd feel better buying something graded by a third party like that, because they have no vested interest in that particular item. Like I mentioned above, that way I know someone hasn't tampered with it, especially when resealing seems to happen somewhat regularly. I watched a video on youtube with some guy reprinting a card, and resealing the figure with double sided tape. I'm sure there are more methods to the practice.

Now some people might not care if something is resealed, and that's fine. It just comes down to what you want to go after. But I also think that prices should drop some, they are kinda inflated really. I am not into joes to make money, but it would be nice to know that if I was forced to sell items, I could get my money back if not a little more then I paid

[hotdog]

As far as people being really down on the AFA, I think the whole idea of it is to have a standard people can trust. Personally, I'd feel better buying something graded by a third party like that, because they have no vested interest in that particular item. Like I mentioned above, that way I know someone hasn't tampered with it, especially when resealing seems to happen somewhat regularly. I watched a video on youtube with some guy reprinting a card, and resealing the figure with double sided tape. I'm sure there are more methods to the practice.

I agree, but since they are generally paid by the owner of the item, does that bias the item high? obviously the best way to buy an item would be to actually see it, but that's not always possible. but if i want to depend on a third party grading system, then a c-7 should be a c-7, regardless of who looks at it.
I remember before AFA getting mad at sellers who would sell stuff as c-9.5 that had obviously been repaired. I got a grunt early on that had swivel arms, but a straight arm crotch- I think from brians toys, I know they sold me a shortfuse with broken thumbs once too as a c-7.5 (i bought it for the hands and was really ticked).
I am not bashing AFA, I guess I am just wondering if you guys that do buy AFA (not mint stuff that's a no brainer grade) find their grading dead on, or questionable, or do you just use it as a tool to sell your items (no shame in that i suppose).
I can see the benefits as a seller, but unless the system was dead on, I would still prefer to see the item, instead of depending on the AFA grade to tell what it's worth.
and as far as resealing items- that drives me nuts. I have seen carded items for sale at local flea markets that i know are fake carded figures (having 6-7 MOC vinyl caped jawas for instance), or resealed (chrome viper being replaced in the 5 pack comes to mind). I normally open the items i buy, but I still want legitimate items.

[Lt. Night Viper]

To answer your question Hotdog, yes I do see differences in the grades. I have two graded vehicles, an 80 Darklon's Evader and an 85 Mobile Battle Bunker. I can see why the got two different grades.

Figures are a little harder I think. I have 7 graded figures that are straight 85's I think. I have another that is straight 90's. I'm not looking at them now, but the difference is tougher to tell.

[Volleydan]

At one point in its early days, AFA was said to have common ownership with one of the major online toy retailers. They registered the company through someone's brother in law to cover their tracks, but word got out.

To me, that's a far worse potential indictment of their credibility than simple grading inconsistencies.....their site indicates that AFA employees are not allowed to have items graded, but I guess that rule doesn't apply to its owners .

Didn't you ever wonder why a certain online toy store suddenly started selling so much high-grade AFA stuff about five years ago? That one store alone made AFA.

[Bigbot]

Interesting topic...

I converted to MOC a while back and also find it challenging to find good quality pieces, specially key pieces, non-AFA graded. Having said that, I have to be much more careful when purchasing non-AFA because the sellers idea of mint may not be in line with mine.

I would have to say that there are examples of both out there. If you're looking for MOC and are tolerant of a few flaws here and there, but something that displays nice, most likely these pieces are not going to be graded anyway. Grading is "usually" reserved for finer pieces. You just have to be patient.

Yes, most of the AFA stuff is going to be more expensive. The genious of AFA is that they are providing a service that lends itself to internet sales and minimizes risk for higher end, quality collectors. Plus I like the extra protection (and look) the sealed acrylic cases provide against my greasy hands. Grading is the natural progression in any hobby that grows in demand and in which condition (beyond MOC) becomes a bigger factor. I compare it to rare coin collecting.

Personally, I welcome the trend. As we mature and grow, so does our hobby.

[HardaTaq]

. As we mature and grow, so does our hobby.

As our wallets shrink.

[Da_Last_2_Walk]

I'm another one who has gotten about as much of the loose stuff as I care to and have thought of collecting MOC items here and there. Here's my take on what's going on:

It's true that sellers, especially on EBay, have taken to selling mostly graded MOC items. It's becoming harder and harder to find ungraded MOC Joes. For me, this stinks because I don't want to pay 3-4 times what the item is worth simply because someone else looked at it and gave an opinion on its condition.

Stop fighting it! AFA is calling you to join the dark side!

The AFA items are worth exactly what they are paid for. An AFA 85 Firefly that sells for $1500, is worth $1500 to both the seller and the buyer of the item.

The sellers have a perfect right to sell figures like this....after all, they typically sell for higher prices and that's the name of the game for them. I respect that right....but I also have the right to resent it. The items that I want to collect simply aren't available right now, and that stinks for me. There's also the resentment I have as a collector toward those who treat Joes as strictly an "investment".

Not all sellers on ebay sell Joes strickly as investments. I for example, only sell AFA Joes when I upgrade to a better condition Joe. So if I'm selling an AFA 80 Firefly, it's because I got/want an AFA 85 Firefly.

I consider my AFA collection both a love and an investment. While I plan to keep my AFA collection, if I ever do sell it, I hope to get the most $ I can for it.

My only consolation is the knowledge that eventually the small portion of the market that is providing the demand for AFA items will have what they need and then there won't be a demand for these items. Once sellers start losing money on their "investment" in AFA grading, they'll stop having their items graded and not only will non-graded Joes be more readily available, but prices on AFA graded Joes will drop to more realistic levels.

I would say that after checking the completed listings for AFA Joes, that the number of AFA sellers/collectors has remained strong, with a small growth due to the new 25th Toys and the new Movie.

I doubt the prices for MOC/AFA vintage Joes will ever go down. In my 4 years of collecting AFA Joes, the price of AFA Joes has risen every year.